The Definition of a Cliche

[AviasNelan]

Let me start of by saying, I want to be original. I want something that is meaningful, insightful, and makes a person really think about what is going on in any given situation. I am not talking about anything philisophical in nature, just something worth banging around inside your brain. I know most RPG's tend to deal with a force, evil, or unavoidable disaster that threatens the world. Sure, I want that in mine, but is it cliche? Is it unoriginal? I don't know. What appeals to everyone here? Is that something you would write off instantly, or is it something that brings you in? I ask because I don't just want to make a game that I will like, but that everyone would find at least worthy of their time...

Sorry for the rant, :(

Avias

[Big Rick Cook]

I think that if you spend too much time worrying about whether your idea is original enough, or so cliche that it will make people turn away in disgust, that you'll lose sight of what you're trying to do. With a novel, you aren't trying first and foremost to make an original piece. You're trying to tell a story. With a game, the story - no matter how great it is - must take a backseat to the gameplay. If you don't have a game that's fun to play, or challenging, no one will work to beat your game just to find out the story.

Stories are important to the way a game remembers itself in your mind. You don't always remember the gameplay or the thousands of mundane battles, but if the story is really good, regardless of whether it's cliche or completely original, you'll herald that as one of your favorites. I like to use Grandia II as my example of a game that has the most cliche story you can imagine, yet is told so well that you don't mind it being cliche. I love the characters of Grandia II more than any other game.

Now, if the battle system of Grandia was terrible, people wouldn't care about the story. The battle system was fun and engaging, and that's the key selling point for most everybody.

I think what I'm getting at here is that you have to have a story worth telling, with characters that you can have feelings about. You also have to have a game that's fun to play. If you can manage both of these, you'll have a masterpiece. It doesn't matter if your ideas are unoriginal if you can put your own spin on them and make them seem fresh and new.

[AviasNelan]

Thank you Mr. Cook. I understand what you are saying now. I should build my story around the gameplay, not the other way around. I have another question. Is there some kind of system, procedure, or path that I need to follow in order to have a well organized game? What are some examples of ways to go about it. Sorry if you have heard all these questions before, but as you can seen I am very noobish.

Thanks again,

Avias

[Hedrum]

I don't know. You'll have to figure that out on your own my friend. :jesus

[thetruecoolness]

Well that depends on what you mean by well organized game. If you mean in terms of figuring it out how to use RPG Maker 2, take a look at Dungeon Warden's FAQ here (http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=870) and look through the variables, and flags, and then pour through the premade scripts and figure out what they do and where they are used.

If you mean in terms of story, start out with what you really want to be in your story, and then basically connect the dots for those points and put them in order then go into the details. You can do it bottom-up details-general stuff, but most people find it easier to make a top-down story staring off with some general points and then getting more specific. A good site to look at is gamedev (http://www.gamedev.net) for how to design. Though it also has a lot of programming references there are a lot of good articles on how to design games, without being specific to any language or game creation tool. So search around there for some inspiration. Of course there are also some tutorials on this site for how to write RPG's check them (http://www.pavilionboards.com/index.php?page=rm2tutorial) out too.

Then once you know what you want to do for your story, ask questions here about how to script them. And as Big Rich Cook says writing it down in word or notepad, or even paper is a good idea. Some caution against writing down too soon just to give the idea a chance to blossom in your head but that's up to you.

[Big Rick Cook]

When it comes to actually organizing and making games, I know absolutely nothing. I have not the patience to sit and script things in an RPG Maker for hours and hours to come up with half an hour's worth of workable material.

I like to think that transferring mediums is a good way to get organized. If you have a concrete idea, you should get everything written down. Get a notebook and start writing out your plans. Make a short story of it, if you want. I don't know the best way to get organized, because I'm not that kind of worker, but it seems to me that if you try to work out of your head, you'll constantly be losing things. If you scribe everything that you think might be important to the game, you'll have pages full of things to work from.

Other than that, there are some other people around that can offer much better game-making advice than I could ever hope to impart. I find I give the best advice when it comes to writing rather than gaming.

[KingSpoom]

I seem to remember (http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=522) someone making some sort of guide (http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523) to help people. If only I could find out where (http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524). Oh wait (http://www.rpgmmag.com/issues/issue_5/articles/introduction_to_rpg_design_4.html).

Do you have any specific ideas you really want to include?

[AviasNelan]

Would it be wise to buy RPG maker 2 and practice on it? I want to make it on 3 when it comes out but I have to wait until August for that it seems. I tried 2 out when it was first released and was overwhelmed by the scripting involved. I know that I can learn it, but was wondering if it would help my RPG maker 3 game if I had that to learn from.


From the annoying newbie,

Avias

[thetruecoolness]

If you were to buy one now, RPGM1 would help you transition to 3 more easily. This is what I've heard, and from looking at the reviews for 3 seems to be the case. But I think you should just write down your story now, and then wait for 3 to come out. I forgot you're not planning on making one for 2.

[WilliamKirk]

Actually, the gameplay should be a result of the story in the long run. I always use Final Fantasy Tactics as my example; if FFT had a normal battle system and dungeons like the mainstream FFs it would be impossibly long. They would have at least 55 places to make, from Mandalia Plains and Sweegy Woods all the way to Bethla Garrison and Limberry Castle; in the end the game would never be completed, or the gameplay would get stale by the end because of typical dungeon after typical dungeon. I'd recommend getting an outline of the story and sequence of events (player goes here because ___, ___ happens, player then goes here because ___), and as you make progress on that think about what the gameplay should be like (battle system, optional stuff, etc.).

Most people will agree that in the end it's better to have a game with okay gameplay and okay story than one with good gameplay and bad story or bad story and good gameplay.

Alas, here's a compilation of good info over the last year for how to start:

http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=581

Good luck on getting through all of it. In case it doesn't mention it in there, in the end make the game how you want to and you'll get a better result (put your wants over others').

[Ryner]

Buying RPG Maker 2 to practice for RPG Maker 3 is like riding a rabid tiger to practice driving.

As for cliches, avoid the Princess who gets tired of being royalty and joins the party as a white mage. Avoid the heroes having to collect multiple artifacts that are the key to defeating the bad guy. Avoid the main bad guy being related to anyone.

I also suggest avoiding romantic interests all together. While they're not overly cliche, most people here probably lack the writing skills needed to make a side story about love and not make it suck.

Most people will agree that in the end it's better to have a game with okay gameplay and okay story than one with good gameplay and bad story or bad story and good gameplay.

Yeah, no s---. Except an ok game with an ok story isn't good enough. You should demand perfection from your creation and yourself. Naturally, you're going to think your game is better than it is, but if you think your story is only ok and your gameplay the same, you might as well delete your files, as I can garuntee your game is terrible.

[Draygone]

Okay, here's what I think. Create the story the way you want it. If you want the world to be saved, or if the 4 Pieces of the Ancient Zynth are the keys to opening the portal to the Krynson Realm where the secret to defeating your brother villain can be found, that's fine by me. Don't try to create a story that others might like. If you're not interested in the story you're creating, then the story will ultimately suffer. It's much easier to create a story that you like, and make it good, even if it does have every cliche imaginable.

The only thing you really have to worry about is the gameplay. You don't have to do anything super fancy, but try to make it fun. When you're testplaying your game, try to imagine the game as a commercial game as you're playing it. With the RPGMs' limits in consideration of course. If you're not having that much fun playing the game, then rework the gameplay until it is fun. Make it as fun as you possibly can. Nobody wants to play a game where every enemy takes 20 hits to defeat, and I'm sure nobody would really want to create a game like that, either.

[Big Rick Cook]

Naturally, you're going to think your game is better than it is,

On the contrary, I tend to be the most critical of my own writing. I have a dastardly hard time getting pages written because I'm hard-pressed to be satisfied with what I've already written. First drafts are recommended for most people, but I can't do them. My first draft is usually pretty close to whatever the end result will be, because I don't move on until I'm satisfied with a paragraph.

It may be weird and unorthodox, but it seems to work for me.

[RPGD]

Just about everything mentioned are great ways to get going, but the most important thing is that you should do what you feel is right and try not to let others' impressions affect the result too much. No matter how hard you work on a game, even if it's good, there will always be people who will dislike it for one reason or another (even for retarded reasons). Everyone has different tastes; Not everyone on the planet can like the same thing. So, it's important to ensure that you are happy with the result. It's your game, after all.

[Alzar]

I would also recommend not touching RPG Maker 2 and waiting for RPG Maker 3, because other than 6-7 people in the world, everyone thinks RPG Maker 2 is a piece of crap.

[RPGD]

Hey, it's not crap; it's just overly complex for many people.

[Dungeon Warden]

Different people have different strenghts. If you are good at story telling but weak in game design, it is better to work with the default game play and let the story move the player to continue. Working with RPG Maker 3 is good in this regard, since you can't change the basic gameplay (as far as we know).

If you're good with design, but bad at story telling, then make a realistic word that will make the player forget they are playing an RPG Maker game. Rolling hills and water falls, towns build in hill sides, and developed cave systems will make a player want to play your game to see what else you have designed.

If you are good with programing, you might consider RPG Maker 2; as it will allow you the freedom to create your own battle system, along with menus, flashy effects, and complex mini games. You're only limited by your imagination if you have the skills and patience (which not many people do).

Make the best game you can make. Don't let one area suffer because you're not good at it, but don't get overly upset if you just can't get it to work. All you can do is your best. That is something you can be proud of regardless of what people think of your game.

The only games I don't like are the ones that are made by just throwing a bunch of preset stuff together with a weak story involving characters from commercial games. These are all right if you're practicing game design, but please put some effort into a game you plan to make for the community. The fact that you even ask for help suggests that you want to make the effort, so just do it.

Stop asking questions. Write your story. Then rewrite it with game play in mind. Rewrite it again, thinking about the player's experience this time (cut-scenes, mini games, boss battles, side quests, etc.) Once you get RPG Maker 3, you will be all set to design your game any way you want, using your script as a blueprint. As you find out what RPG Maker 3 can do, you might have to change some things, so keep things flexable.

Be creative. Be Flexable. Do your best. No one can ask for more.

[Ryner]

Stop asking questions.

Terrible advice.

[Dungeon Warden]

I mean, stop worrying about what the story should be, and just write it. Obviously if you need help of a technical nature, please ask. Creativity, however, is something you can only work out for yourself.

[AviasNelan]

Thanks for all the advice.

I think I will pick up RPG Maker 2 and tinker with it a bit. If anything it's nice to have it in the collection. I am gonna do what I think I would like. If I don't like it, how can I expect anyone else to? Great advice. Before I "stop asking questions", I would like to thank everyone who took the time to help me out.
I won't ask anything again unless it is a technical question relating to RPGM 2.

Thanks again,

Avias

[Ryner]

Dude, dont stop asking questions. It's really terrible advice.

[Big Rick Cook]

Yeah. There's no reason to jump in a hole and stop listening to what other people have to say. There's a difference between asking questions to get different insight and asking questions to get answers. Just don't take anything anybody says as 100% truth, and don't do something just because someone convincing suggests it.

Except this. :b

[AviasNelan]

Sure thing.

[Hedrum]

I would also recommend not touching RPG Maker 2 and waiting for RPG Maker 3, because other than 6-7 people in the world, everyone thinks RPG Maker 2 is a piece of crap.

A bit to late for this, but oh well.

How is it a piece of crap? Okay, I know that it may be frusterating, confusing, and may not have as great as graphics as RPG Maker 3. But RPG Maker 2 seems to be a bit more customize-able then RPG Maker 3 (as from what I've heard). And from what I've heard, RPG Maker 3 seems more crappy than RPG Maker 2. It sounds so limiting (however, I'm not taking what I've heard about RPG Maker 3 too seriously). Besides, I already have a copy of RPG Maker 2. I must make a game for it someday.

[Alzar]

1) It's not worth the time
2) The graphics are retarded
3) The interface is clunky and awful
4) Maybe 5 people will play your game

[Nightmare Link]

1) It's not worth time time
2) The graphics are retarded
3) The interface is clunky and awful
4) Maybe 5 people will play your game

My brother is mentally retarded.
I don't know what "time time" is.

Some people like Dragon Warrior-ish games, ya know. : |
Even then, it's not like RPGM2 is limited to just that... and it'll always be my opinion that you should make your games to please YOURSELF- it's not like these games generate profit or anything.

[Ryner]

Alzar's did.

My brother is mentally retarded.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Nightmare Link]

I highly doubt there's going to be another contest like EGM's. If you're a little league Game Maker and want to make money, it's best to just learn a simple coding language and adware your games. That's what I do, and it keeps food on the table for me. *shrug*

[AviasNelan]

Well, I really just want to make a game for fun. As a matter of fact, I am getting paid $24 dollars per hour just posting messages on this forum. Making games for free would be cool though. I must admit that. I just bid on RPG Maker 2 and the guide on ebay, I hope it doesn't get over 20 bucks. (good luck there I know) If I can get to where I can understand that, I should be able to pick up number 3 quite easily, or at least that is what I have come to believe. Cliches or no, I plan on making something fun, challenging, and most of all....what I like.

Besides, I like "constructive" criticizm(sp),

Avias

[Ryner]

I am getting paid $24 dollars per hour just posting messages on this forum.

How do I get this job?

[AviasNelan]

I work at Gerber Products Co. Ever heard of it? I attend to the palletizer machines. They pay well, and when the machines are running well, I play on the internet.

It's rough being me sometimes,

Avias

[WilliamKirk]

Stating one's opinions as facts makes me think of the word 'retarded' too. :lol

[Alzar]

But but RPG Maker II is a piece of crap. It is written in the Bible.

2:14:32 "Thou shalt not play RPG Maker II as it is a piece of crap."

[Czechs Mex]

You can have my copy of RPGM2 if you want.

[AviasNelan]

I want it!!!!!

Send me the game!!!


please?

Avias

[Czechs Mex]

Sure man. Just PM me with your address and it's on its way.

[RPGD]

Nice job trying to make him avoid RPGM2, Remote Control.

:minotaur

[Big Rick Cook]

Czechs had a short-lived hiatus.

[Czechs Mex]

It's a hiatus in progress.

[Crimson Knight]

Anyone who has played a game like Plasma Dreams or watched one of RPGProgrammer's crazy VFX movies, knows that RPG Maker 2 is all that, a bag of chips, and your master. :p

Anyway, the problem a lot of people including myself have, is that we want to innovate first. We don't want to have to use someone else's material, or take somethig that works but we didn't come up with and modify it. All I'm gonna say is, when you make your game, make it because you want to make one, and don't stray from what YOU want to make. My games could have cliches coming out its butt, but I could care less, as long as the game is enjoyable.:)

[Draygone]

*edited because I forgot to look at page 2*:p

[cloudfrickinstrife]

the definition of a cliche is...... the medieval setting.


...waiting for 92137 negative replies.

[Draygone]

I don't think you're gonna get anything besides sarcastic replies.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

my opinion differs here. i think its everything in the pakaged deal that makes a game sucessful - becuase that is ultimately what you are dirving for, a good game that multiple people will buy (if your a game company), or play and recoment (Like our situation).

lets break it down into parts. arguable, gameplay, story, visual effects, musical effects, difficulty, and fun factors are the main key areas of a game.

if your gameplay is wonderful, and you have a very memorable system like ff8's juction system or tactics battle system you cirtinly are going to have a memorable game. however if this is the only element of your game that is good or memorable then you will suffer as ff8 did with their lackluster lovestory. a good userfriendly game interface will keep you out of asylums but if everything else sucks then you wont likely want to keep with the distraction long enough to finish the game.

if your story is over the top and worthy of a best seller like xenogears was for depth or valkeryie profile was for character developement then you will have a memorable game, one that will be talked about. however if the game plays like crap, and all the other factors work against you then no mater how grand your story was people will become to frusterated and just walk away from your game. a good story will improve the users desire to play the game to the end to find out what happends.

visual effects are dandy, they are great peices of eye candy that puts the games of today high on the list for realism or detail. however if your game is a walking peice of art, and thats all it is (caugh ffx-2), then people will give up and not follow through with your game becuase visual effects are nice but arnt worth the time when you can go watch a movie or download the entire fmv sequinces. visual effects enhance your game, such as placement of things, eye pleasing collors and realisticish object physics.

musical effects can enhance a game or stand alone such as a few ff soundtracts ive listened to. no one is going to play a game where the sound is total crap and doesnt make much sence, nor will they play a game whos entire focus is that of a cd and not of playing the game. without a good selection of tunes and soundeffects, your game will seam very bland.

the difficulty of a game is a very important factor, especialy for rpgmaker games becuase a games sucess can be made or broken by how difficult it is to play. games with battle systems that beat you down are going to be dumped in a hurry. we have far less tolerance for difficult games made by rpg maker then we do from a company like capcon and most notibly atlus. it is also good to keep in mind that difficulty is not only gameplay but the ability to keep with the story and its elements. if you confuse a player then they will be droping your game fast. set the level of difficulty for your game that will be best for your targeted group and stick with that difficulty, do not fluxuate it or youll toss out your player and leave him in a daze.

fun factor is also very important because if your game is not fun then you wont have anyone playing it. also the most fun part of a game is ususaly the most memorable - as is the most tedious. places like the golden scauser in ff7 or mini games in samuri legend musashi are going to make your game stand out. but if they have to smash through greuling hours of gameplay just to get there, then they wont likely move past these fun bits or maybe not reach them at all. the point of a game is to have fun, this is why we play most video games to begin with.

as you can most likly tell, its the entire pakage deal that makes a game worthwile to play and enjoy. a cleche is not the end of a game, but it can criple a game if its not used properly. i have seen alot of games pull off some very cleche bits and put a new spin on them that makes them seam unique. as northwherp fry said, "every story has already been told," so we should keep in mind that its HOW you tell your story, through the use of this medium that will determin your sucess with it. breakthrough innovation is nice to have, but so is some familair elements.

[Gustaff 13]

Someone should let Avias know he's about to recieve a broken-in-two RPG Maker 2 disc that was submerged in toilet water...

Also, has it yet been said that the RPG Cliche topic has itself become a cliche?

[Draygone]

and you have a very memorable system like ff8's juction systemWell, I do remember it. But that's for another discussion. Just make sure the system is good and not horribly flawed.we have far less tolerance for difficult games made by rpg maker then we do from a company like capcon and most notibly atlus.Which isn't to say we don't like a good challenge now and again. Just as long as it's not stupidly difficult, like for example, making a game where you race birds, and you have to get a super-low time such as 0 seconds while trying to avoid other birds that fly into you and stun you.

[tjoris9]

In terms of game balance, it's almost always better to have an extremely easy game with other elements that will keep the player from getting bored and quitting prematurely. Usually you can get away with standard character building methods (Levels, equipment upgrading, etc.) as long as the system allows players to quickly reach sufficient levels to pass the next challenge.

In terms of originality, don't try too hard. Nothing's new anymore, really. All the most interesting plot elements (i.e. death, war, murder, love, humor, crossdressing-wherever the hell that came up) have already been used at least a hundred times before Jesus was born, and probably a million times since then.

My own philosophy regarding building a plot is generally dependent on what you intend to focus on as plot elements.

There's the locations. Perhaps the plot is centered on a city. It is only fitting that you sit down and think of the city as an actual historical site. Even the smallest town and village has its secrets.

Then there's the characters. Everyone, even that goblin your character killed to gain their first level up, has some story to tell. You may even find it interesting to allow the character to befriend that goblin and find out what his life has been like as a plot point.

Last, but most certainly not least, is the events. What happens is the all-important part that every story must have to at least a minimum level of detail. If there's anything about a game that people will remember it's the things that happened.

Still, I'm not saying that character personalities are negligible or that towns can be left as generic medieval villages. The best way to make a story complete is to focus on one element at a time, effectively working on the plot in layers, rather than trying to do it all in one fell swoop.

[neobi]

Here's what the dictionary had to say:

1)
A trite or overused expression or idea: “Even while the phrase was degenerating to cliché in ordinary public use... scholars were giving it increasing attention” (Anthony Brandt).

A person or character whose behavior is predictable or superficial

2)
Clich'e \Cli`ch['e]"\, n. [F. clich['e], from clicher to stereotype.] A stereotype plate or any similar reproduction of ornament, or lettering, in relief.

3)
n : a trite or obvious remark

[AviasNelan]

I am fully aware of the destruction of that disc. I found it quite funny :)

He is not sending it to me. Thank God!

Thanks for all the replies!