The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

[Perversion]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

I'm not here to have an "RPG Maker career" and impress an audience. I think you have me confused with you. You're the one who boasts about pushing the limits of what the program can do.

Well, that's not wholly untrue. I DO take pride in trying to push the program's limits, because it's what drives me to create games with it. If I'm not challenging myself in some way (and with RPGM3's limitations, the programming IS the only way I can challenge myself using the software), I lose interest in the creative process VERY quickly. Yeah, I probably DO "boast" about it to some extent, but as you've said in the past, it's self-promotion.

I can't take video game stories seriously. It's a game. Not a novel or a movie. If I want a story, I'll read a book or watch a movie. When I'm playing a game, I want a game. Not a story.

See, I think this statement is the main difference in our philosopy on video games. Granted, in all of my games so far, I've kinda contradicted myself, as I DO focus on mechanics over story, but as it is with you, I used to write a lot of fiction/poetry when I was younger, but it's harder for me now to get inspired to write this stuff, especially as realistic dialogue has ALWAYS been my weak point.

Barring any more "self-promotion" in your thread, I DARE you to play Indigo Prophesy (or Farenheit if you play the PC version) and then come out on the other end and tell me with a straight face that you cannot take video game stories seriously, and that they are vastly inferior (yeah, I'm putting words in your mouth for emphasis ) to what you might read in a novel or see in a film. Others might have other suggestions for quality stories in video games, but I can pretty much place Indigo Prophesy in the top tier of video game storytelling, as it almost transcends being a video game, and in more in line with being an interactive film.


Okay...barring any more suggestions for games you should play, I WILL say, Cry, that I do think we got off to a bad start over at Game FAQs. But you need to know (and I'm pretty sure I've told you this before, and I think you took it the worng way) that I'm only "egging you on" (I like to call it constructive criticism) because I think you ARE creative, and DO have potential to make something really great. I know you're not looking to cater to an audience, yadda yadda, but even making a game yourself, I'm trying to encourage you to push yourself and to stretch your limits, as I've found that this is the most rewarding gift I've received from working with RPGM. I've gotten "confrontational" with you in the past for the same reason I did a while ago at the mag with Kittykicker. She had a good kernel of an idea, and I tried to prod her to stretch her limits a bit. I'm trying to give constructive criticism, not trying to come across as the be-all, end all, self-appointed RPGM3 god or something. Those who show promise, I try to encourage, and even if you do not take my "confrontational" posts as encouragement, that's really how I intend them to be taken.


For me, if I invest a good amount of time typing replies for game ideas and whatnot (which I've definitely done in this thread), it means that I'm actively interested in what you are trying to accomplish, and would like to lend a voice in trying to give you an alternate viewpoint that you can then do with what you wish. Not trying to sound all high and mighty, but if a new game idea does not catch my interest, I do not feel it worthy of spending time coddling the person and telling him or her "nice things." I'll just not post. I think that any yes-men who only tell you things you want to hear because it's all warm and soft and fuzzy and let's all have a group hug (not directing this at Valk by any means) are doing you a disservice.

From what you've said, the people at the Mag think this is a grand idea, and are lending you full encouragement. Which is good. I'm just saying by posting this idea here, you are more likely to get people to tell you what they really think (well, Libby and myself I guess, in this case) without regard to how you might take it. I'm aware of some of the issues you have that we discussed in PM, and of course I'll not divulge them here. But I think it's a good idea to get differing opinions and then sift through them on your own to seperate the wheat from the chaff. If you only pay heed to all the positive comments, and ignore everything else, I seriously think you are doing yourself a disservice. As I've stated previously, taking the criticism and really digesting it (which I think you are doing) can only allow you to grow as a game designer and as a person, and allows the community to continue to progress.


I'm awaiting another wall of text response with half of my post quoted , but belive me, Cry, I'm really not trying to egg you on or get your goat or put you or your ideas down. I'm trying to calmly and level-headedly (is that even a word?) have a conversation/debate with you, and only because I respect you as a fellow game designer (again, not trying to sound high and mighty), and I think you need a little nudge in the ribs on occasion in order to step outside of yourself and see things from a different perspective.


*approaching end of wall of text*


And that rep I gave you last night (or whenever....I've lost track of days in the past few) was not meant to be facetious, even though after posting it (typo and all....damn cheapo wireless keyboard), I can see how it might be taken that way.


Anyway, chin up, good chap, and please do not sequester yourself away from the community again over frivilous bull****.

[Crythania]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

You gave me rep?

(goes to look...)

Umm... I don't get it. Oh well.

Wait a minute.

(checks my rep remark...)

Dangit! I no longer "eat Lego sandwiches"! Crud! Now I'm a "glorious beacon of light" or some such BS. Thanks for ruining my mojo! I love Legos! It was very appropriate that "Crythania eats Lego sandwiches".

This sucks!

(All in good fun, of course. I'm not really upset.)



There's a lot to possibly respond to here, and I don't feel up to it at the moment. For the moment, I'll just say...

Valk - Thanks for injecting some much needed reason onto this thread. Your wisdom is much appreciated.

Obright - ::hugs:: I like ROL the way it is. I won't be changing it. The special edition will be a stand-alone version and is not meant to replace the classic one. I think I need to get TOV off my mind... by finishing it. It's a weight on my shoulders. I'll feel much better when it's done and off my mind for good.

Lib - Thank you for your input and the nice things you have said. Believe it or not, I have been paying attention (although it probably doesn't look like it).

Perv - I'll deal with you in good time. Yes, in good time, my perverted friend, you will be dealt with. Mwahahahahaha! <--Evil overlord laugh

Thurlum: I still have my copy of "Waterworld". We could strap him down and make him watch it... with no popcorn.
Cry: Umm, that's a bit over the top, dude.
Thurlum: (growls) Well, how about "Battlefield: Earth", then?
Cry: Wayyyy over the top.
Thurlum: (growls) You take all the fun out of being evil. It's very annoying.

[Perversion]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

I love how Obright abbreviates your name as Cryth, Libby as Crys, and myself as Cry. I guess there is not standard abbreviation for your screen name. Although, in your last post, you DID abbreviate your own name as Cry, so I win!!!

[Crythania]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

Pervy,

I'm not gonna do the "quoting thing" this time because I don't feel like it.

I think I misunderstood your attitude. I apologize for that. I think that's one of the problems with these forums. Gamers and game designers are misunderstood until they finally explain their points of view (and even then, some people don't really want to understand them). I can understand how you feel about challenging yourself with the programming. If that's what's gonna get more games made, then you have my support (if it's worth anything). I now understand that that's what interests you the most. On the same token, what interests me the most is world design. I tend to lose interest when the time comes to write story events. I have to push myself to get it done. I procrastinate until I eventually decide, "Oh, alright! I'll do it!"

I am not looking for a challenge, though. I balk at challenges. When the gauntlet is thrown down, I'm not interested. I s'pose world design could be as challenging as anything else. But it's fun. And therein lies the difference. If it's not fun, it's a chore.

~*~*~

I don't know why self promotion got such a bad name here. We should push our games to get 'em played. To those who don't approve... deal with it. It's simple advertising. Don't like advertising? Move to Antarctica.

I say, boast to your heart's content. Promote your stuff. Be an egotist or whatever.

What is the deal with all these unspoken rules in online communities? Contradict yourself once, and someone is there, ready to pounce on it and call you out for it. Here's a clue, people: It is my God-given right to contradict myself. I'm not a candidate running for office, and this isn't a court of law. I know what you're all thinking. "Well if you contradict yourself, then no one will take you seriously." Please, don't take me seriously. I don't take you seriously. I don't take myself seriously. But seriously... stop taking me seriously. Why is it that I feel like I'm on trial and anything I say can be used against me?

It seems as if there's always someone who's watching and waiting for you to say something that could be interpreted with a negative connotation (contradicting oneself, double standard, ego, and so on). You gotta watch what you say and add qualifiers to everything, as you frequently did in your post. "Yes, I know I contradicted myself." "Yes, I know I boasted." "I don't mean to sound all high and mighty." It's a way of preempting those who would call you out on what they perceive is a display of negative character.

Boast about your accomplishments, and you're labeled an "egotist". "You're an egomaniac." "You're self centered." "You're patting yourself on the back." Umm... so? What's your point? No one else is gonna do it. I feel good about my accomplishments, and damned if anyone else approves.

Can I not just be myself without constantly having labels applied to my forehead by others? Can I be who I am without my character being negatively critcized and assassinated at every turn?

Here's my new and improved attitude. Don't like my attitude? Deal with it. I've spent a great deal of time on the internet putting up with others and their attitudes. It's about time someone had to put up with me for a change. Did I contradict myself? Deal with it. Did I say something that you misinterpreted or misunderstood? Your problem, not mine. Am I self involved? Yes. Care to attach a point to that? Am I egotistical or am I humble? Go and find someone who cares and flap your mouth at him about it.

So says I, do whatever you want. Boast, be proud, promote your stuff. Wanna make an "RPG Maker career" out of it. You have my blessing (if that's worth anything). I think that the people who want to be famous should get what they want. As for me, I'd rather quietly work in the background. It's much more quiet and peaceful back there.

Stop holding me down with all these unspoken rules. I'm an internet anarchist. I'm a renegade.

"I am not a number! I am a free man!"

(That's from "The Prisoner", an old sci-fi show. If you got that reference, here's a cookie.)

I will contradict myself at will. I will have double standards. I will be self involved. I will be anything else that anyone can attach a negative label to, and I'm not answering any more allegations or innuendo. Anyone with me here? Anyone understanding me? Anyone else been through what I've been through with internet nerds watching your every move, calling you out on things, and picking arguments for the sake of arguing? Where's the fun?

Where's the beef?

Where's the fun in participating in an online community? Where is it? Can someone show me? Because I'm not seeing much. Where is it? Can we move past the negativity, name-calling, courtroom theatrics, interrogations, psychoanalysis, and character assassinations and just all be friends? Is that even possible? I have seen much on the internet. Time and again, I have seen everything that I named above. I have seen duelists. I've been a duelist. I've seen veiled harassment that sneaks its way past moderators. I've seen bullies. I've seen it all. And I'm telling y'all right now, I don't want to participate in that garbage anymore. But especially arguing for the sake of having a daily argument to look forward to. That's not my purpose. It's not my manifesto.

I know I can't be the only one. I know I don't stand alone. Your post was filled with qualifiers in an effort to preempt me or someone else calling you out and starting a meaningless argument. You shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to do that. You shouldn't have to constantly be watching your back. Where's the honesty? Where's the sincerity? I'd rather be damned for being honest than go to heaven for being a liar.

My message to the internet at large is: leave me out of the electronic yenta, innuendo, and games of cat and mouse. Cuz at the end of the day, that's what it is. A game. And I refuse to play.

(This segment wasn't directed at you, Perv. It was directed at the community in general.)

~*~*~

Now, on with the fun! (If there is any)

Moving on to our differing points of view about video games... I should've said, "I don't want to take video game stories seriously." I think you and I are close in age. I was around when the first video game arcades showed up. I was around for the Atari 2600. To me, it's always gonna be "just a game".

Video games have come a long way since the good ol' days, and I'm not much interested in keeping up with the current status quo. To me, the story is always gonna be something that merely provides a rhyme and reason for the stuff that really matters (to me). I miss the days when the story was a couple paragraphs in a game manual. "Dr. Robotnik is trying to take over the world again!" That's story enough for me. I admit that I have changed somewhat with the times. In designing my own RPGM games, I needed a reason to be exploring, fighting monsters, and collecting treasures. The idea hadn't occurred to me to just focus on what's important to me while going lean on the reason why we're doing the game play. In the good ol' days, I didn't need a reason to be doing whatever I have to do in a video game. Playing the game was the reason for playing the game. And playing the game was its own reward. In spite of my best efforts, I have changed with the times; and I don't like it. I provided a story and characters... and now I realize that all of that wasn't really necessary. The gameplay is what holds my interest.

I understand what you're saying about the video game that transcends being a video game and has great storytelling. I'm not saying video game stories are inferior. I'm saying I don't want the story. It's not the reason why I play a video game.

Moving on... You think I "have the potential to make something really great." That's a problem. In my humble opinion, I already have made something really great, and I'll move on to make something else really great. Here's my personal critique of my first game... ("You're criticizing your own game?! I thought you only criticized other peoples' games." Yeah, strange, isn't it. Very out of character for me. Oh well.)

Some of this you're not going to understand because you haven't played far enough. But others will.

1. Inventory management. While managing four guys' inventories mostly full of single-use items can be fun at times, I really liked the 5-use items because it was easier on the item-handling. This is a flaw. Too many single-use items to manage, and we're constantly getting more from treasure chests. In the sequel, each town has a marketplace composed of a few shops that sell items ranging from single-use to 10-use. There are many to choose from, and many are of the 5-use and 10-use persuasion. So you can stock up on these without the inventory becoming a bother. Get a few single-use items just for fun, and take advantage of the multi-use ones for easier inventory management. We'll have to bring our restorative stuff along with us, because there won't be many to find in treasure chests (a few here and there, at most, in contrast to the first game).

2. All those events that say "There's nothing special here." They should be more colorful. "There's nothing we can use here, but there's a recent copy of Barbarian Warlords Monthly." Stuff like that will give more flavor to it than just saying "There's nothing useful here."

3. The Earth character needs more spells. If he can get healing spells, he should be able to get Light Omen, Flash, and other useful spells. This will give us more options to choose from. You won't have to rely solely on the Fire character when you need Light Omen, Vibrant, and other helpful stuff. Theoretically, the Water character could also learn Fire spells (Water is greater than Fire; so the Water person should be able to learn Fire magic; a Water person couldn't learn Wind magic, though, because Wind is greater than Water). But this might confuse the whole thing further than it already is.

4. The early-game needs to give us more options to choose from. More spells at our disposal during the early going, more accessories that we can easily acquire, and more to work with. The game gets easier as it progresses because more spells are gained, useful accessories are gained that give us a good edge over the opposition, and we have more to work with than we did early on. The early-game needs some added flexibility. It's the most rigid part of the game.

5. The money is kind of tight. We need more money to work with, a bit more leeway in spending. I'm still gonna play the game the way it's intended to be played, but it wouldn't hurt to have more money available to get accessories or better weapons and armor sooner than intended. And since we'll have to bring our restorative stash along with us, we'll need plenty of cash for that.

I'm probably forgetting something that I'll remember later. Aside from those things, I don't have a problem with it. I recently played it to reacquaint myself with the story and gameplay so I could work on the sequel, and I liked it. In spite of those five points, I still think it's pretty good.

So here's what's gonna happen. The sequel will be "more of the same" with these points addressed, a new cast of characters, the extended storyline that there wasn't room for in the first game, and new environments to explore. Then I'll do a third game in the same vein to complete the trilogy. Then I'll consider doing something completely new and different by way of gameplay. I'd like to make a completely customizable system where the player accumulates experience points and spends them like money to improve attributes and gain new spells at his leisure (not because it would be innovative; because it's what I'd like to see).

You and I are very much different. Criticism, constructive or otherwise, discourages me. I'm not looking for a challenge. I'm not looking to push the limits of what I can do (although there are a few who might say I've done that with field map design). I'm not sure what you want from me. It sounds kinda like, "Make a game with a dungeon like that ol' underground mining town but with story and gameplay that I like." I'm not ditching the elemental thing because you found it confining. I like it. It holds my interest. Admittedly, it works much better in a tactical game with a larger party and more characters. But I don't have a "tactical RPG maker". Gotta make do with what I have.

The elemental thing will eventually run its course. I know, your opinion is that it's already run its course. After three games with likeminded gameplay, it will definitely be time for bland, colorless battles where anything goes. But there are other problems. RPG Maker 3 is going to run its course. There's only so much you possibly do with it before all the townspeople start looking alike. You'll meet Joe in "Lord Of The Bling" and say to yourself, "Hey, that's Bob from 'First Fantasy VII'." The characters and bad guys are all gonna start looking alike after a while, and there will be little that separates one game from another. What's gonna make a game stand out from the crowd is the character of the environment and whatever unique features you've installed. Even so, all of the caves and dungeons look alike. The walls, the floors. The only things that are gonna make a dungeon look different from any other dungeon are the layout of it and liberal use of deco to give it a unique look and feel.

Towns are all gonna look alike from one game to another, with the same buildings and same cast of characters inhabiting them. The only thing that's truly customizable is the field maps. That's where you can design something that's gonna stand out and be truly unique.

There's only so much you can do with it. I foresee myself making two more games. Maybe the one with the customizable characters. Then it'll reach a point where anything more would be redundant (in terms of the standard setup with towns, fields, and dungeons). Battles are also going to run their course, what with the very limited battle engine. It's gonna get old very quickly (if it hasn't already). I have a few ideas for games that would be way outside the box, and that's the future of creativity and artistry for RPG Maker 3.

Anyway, two more standard games. Maybe the customizable one. Then I'm probably done. That'll be the time to start thinking outside the box. The people and monsters definitely have to go. The environment will always be a source of uniqueness and creativity.

I think we should team up, you and I. You can do the story and gameplay, and I'll provide the scenery and deco. Although I can imagine if the data limit is reached, the first thing to get the axe to free up more room would be deco. I am uncompromising with my deco. It's gotta be there. If it doesn't look good, I lose interest.

Finally... Yes, you win! I don't really like my screen name and kinda wish I'd chosen something different, but I'm not gonna change it.

[Crythania]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

It would seem that I've killed all conversation on this thread. But I'm not finished yet. Yes, my gentle audience, you're gonna have to suffer me a bit more. I know it'll be a difficult undertaking, fraught with tests of patience. But I have faith in you. You can handle it.

In my previous post, I said "Criticism, constructive or otherwise, discourages me." That's not true. I wasn't lying. It just took me a while to realize what really is discouraging.

The reason why I haven't been very receptive to the "constructive criticism" put on display in this thread is because I have yet to see any.

Let's recap.

1. "Your battle system sucks" is not constructive criticism. It's plain old criticism. "The main thing that ruined the game for me was the battle system." Well, too bad for you. Others like it. That's your loss, not anyone else's.

2. "I thought the dialogue and characters were too scripted, and the humor forced." Too bad. Others would disagree. This isn't a constructive thing to say. It's criticism.

3. "Your battle system is very flawed. What you should do is try to rejigger the battles somehow to allow the player a bit of freedom [yadda yadda]..." Try to rejigger the battles somehow... Gee, thanks for the vague advice. Yeah, I'll try to do that... somehow. This is not constructive criticism. What it boils down to is "I don't like what you worked hard to design. You should do something that I'll like."

This is like if I were to say to Obright, "I don't like 'Shadow Of The Towers' because I don't like random battle encounters." But I wouldn't say that because I like "Shadow Of The Towers". I said it at one time, and I was wrong to say it. And Obright, I apologize for having been so critical of random battle encounters in the past. When I opened my mind, stopped being so critical, and played the game, I found myself genuinely enjoying it. I appreciate the game's strengths, and I appreciate the work and thought that the author put into it.

~*~*~

Answer me a question here. When did playing video games become more about players' opinions than it is about the games? I've played all kinds of games during my time. Action, RPG, sports, puzzle. Just about everything. My opinion of the games I was playing never really mattered to me. I still played the games and enjoyed them, even the bad ones. Somewhere along the line, it became more about the players than the games. Blogs and GameFAQs are filled with user reviews that mostly tell the same story. "I liked this about it, but I didn't like that about it, and that ruined the game for me."

Where's the fun in playing video games? Is anyone out there having fun? Or is it more fun to rate the graphics, special effects, sound, gameplay, and give everything a score on a scale of 1 to 10? Is evaluating the games you play more fun than playing them? Does anyone play video games just for fun anymore?

"Well, it's not my thing." Pish! Back in the good ol' days, I didn't have a "thing". I played all kinds of games, and I don't remember being so critical or closed-minded until I got on the internet. I think the internet empowers people. It causes everyone to believe that their silly opinions are worth something. Critical thinking rules the day. Any moron with an opinion and a butt hole to go along with it can have his own blog full of self-important, self-indulgent nonsense. "Hey, look at me! Here's my dopey opinion! I can be someone on the internet! My opinion matters!" Well, your dopey opinion is still as dopey as it was before you started spouting it on the internet. Only difference is, others can read it.

"It's not my thing." "I'm not into that." "I don't like that." Pish! That's your personal problem, not a deficiency on the part of any video game.

And therein lies the problem. Games get blamed for players' closed-mindedness and critical attitudes. The problem doesn't lie with the games. It lies with your inability to enjoy them. Start taking responsibility for yourself. "I didn't enjoy this game because I don't understand its appeal." That's the real story. Not "I didn't enjoy this game because it's inherently flawed."

I've played all kinds of video games. The good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in between. I've enjoyed some of the bad ones as much as I did the good ones. In fact, I've enjoyed some of the bad ones more than the good ones. Some of the games that I gave a mediocre rating of 5 or 6 at GameFAQs, I have played them for many more hours than I did the ones that I gave higher scores. It's not about the scores or the ratings or my dopey opinion of how good a game is. It's not about my evaluations of the graphics, sound, gameplay, and other stuff. It's about whether or not we're having genuine fun. I've surprised myself on occasions when I stopped being such a closed-minded goober. For as long as you remain closed-minded, you're gonna be boxing yourself into that little cubby hole that's "your thing". It's dark and lonely in there, isn't it.

Here's a clue: Play the God damned games, shut your God damned mouth, and have some God damned fun. Open your mind, accept the video games for what they are, and loosen up. Really. Play the games and be entertained. Is that too much to ask for?

~*~*~

If we were talking about commercial games (and I realize that we are talking about them in addition to RPG Maker games)... but let's bring it back to the RPG Maker games. If we were talking about commercial games and I heard someone say "This game's battle system sucks", I might be tempted to say "Well go and make your own game." Want it done right? Do it yourself. Take up programming and make a game that's exactly the way you want it to be. In an RPG Maker forum, I can actually say that. Don't like my games? Tough. Go and make your own. That's what your own games should be for. You can make it the way you want it to be. There is no excuse for trying to tell someone else what they should do with their game.

I have never tried to tell anyone what to do with their game. I've offered ideas. Suggestions. Constructive criticism. "Here are some ideas. If you like them, feel free to use them. If you don't like them, that's okay too. Best of luck to you." I have never tried to tell anyone here that what they're working hard to design sucks. I'm sure someone with a lot of time on his hands is gonna go looking and dig up a post from long ago where it looked like I was trying to tell someone what to do. Knock yourselves out.

When my sister finished playing "Raiders Of Lekunder", she said, "You accomplished exactly what you set out to do." Think about that. Exactly what I wanted to do. Nothing less. Nothing more. What you see is what you get. I think that anyone who sets out to seriously make a game with an RPG Maker should be able to say that.

"I accomplished exactly what I set out to do."

I have no right to tell someone else what he should and should not do with his game. I believe that he should accomplish what he wants to do with it.

~*~*~

Here's an example of constructive criticism.

"The first thing the player sees of the game world is a brick wall (the back of a building). The player's first view of the game world is important. Turn the camera so as to give the player a nice vista of the town." ~ Credit goes to Obright for that. I paraphrased, but that's the gist of what he said.

Notice how he points out a potential problem and at the same time offers an idea on how to fix it. That's constructive criticism.

So in closing, I am open to constructive criticism. I've listened to constructive criticism. I've taken it to heart. It's criticism that discourages me.

What I've seen here pretty much amounts to "You have the potential to make a game with story and gameplay that I will like." Them's the breaks.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and play a video game and be properly entertained by it. I thank God that I still understand what video games are all about.

[Perversion]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

Sleeping dogs, yadda yadda.


I'm sorry for not continuing the conversation in this thread or in PM after you had prompted me to do so. I really felt as if I had nothing more to say on the subject. But now, it's as if you are going out of your way to provoke a response from myself and Libby, just to keep the conversation going.


I'm sorry, Cry. Yeah, it's only my opinion that your battle system is flawed, and I'll stand by that opinion. I'm not the sort of gamer who likes to be spoonfed a formula that I need to follow from the beginning of a game to the end in order to be successful. So, yeah. For those that enjoy a mindless (yeah, I'll say it now only because I'm SURE you want to hear me say something negative about your game so you have reason to post another wall of text tirade. I'm sure of this because, as I said at the beginning of this post, sleeping dogs, yadda yadda) battle system (albeit without all the tedium of random encounters), your game's system works pretty well. I'm sorry, Cry. I've said it multiple times before, and you're kinda pushing me to reiterate it yet again: I personally (and this is an opinion again, mind you) find nothing "smart" or "tough" after the first tutorial battle. Once you learn the elements and their strengths and weaknesses, the rest of the game is spent spamming those elements against their inverses. Yeah, you do get some buffs and whatnot with items, but it's the same rote, Fire vs water throughout everything I played in the game. Which, to me, in my opinion, is neither challenging nor all that fun.

Sorry for being so harsh, but I'm pretty sure you need some fuel for your next post.


I've said previously that I DO respect you as a game designer, and artistically, RoL succeeds admirably. I guess I just kinda like games that challenge me to experiment on my own to discover my own "best" way to progress through the battles, rather than be forced into how the developer wants me to play it.

I came of age, game-wise on Ogre Battle for the SNES, and ever since then, have had a hard time playing RPGs where you are not allowed a certain amount of freedom.

And RPGM games that incorporate humor, in my estimation, never really turn out that well, in the majority of cases. In the ones I've played, the humor is not really all that funny, is kinda forced, and ends up like a dead horse (meaning, the creator beat it for FAR too long).


So, yeah. Not all my previous criticism was constructive. And almost nothing in this post was constructive. But....sleeping dogs.


I guess you're getting a much different response to your game and your ideas here than you are at the mag, and I think I can tell you the major reason. In my estimation, a LOT of the people that come to the Pavilion and stay here do so because their cynicism and jaded-ness finds a home here. I'm sure you do not venture into the Video Game forum here much (if at all), but most of the old-timers/regulars tend to be really jaded about games in general, and I'm no exception. I mean, come on, Cry. We've been playing games since the Atari days. I'm not sure about you, but I am no longer doe-eyed and eager about most new games. It takes a LOT to make me really want to see a game to its finish anymore. Most of what's out there has a "been there, done that," feel to it. Which is why when games like Patapon, Indigo Prophesy, Rez, Viva Piñata, Blast Works, LittleBigPlanet, Katamari Damacy, et al, come out, they make me sit up and take notice. Because they are different. Each does something, in some large or small way, that's never really been done before.


So, yeah. The mag probably has a more open, friendly feel to it, which is why some people over there prefer it to here. But being a 37 year old jaded gamer who's seen it all, and is bored to tears with the status quo, I find my home here at the Pavilion, and find my posts reflecting my cynicism. I refuse to spread happy pills around, just because I'm afraid of hurting someone's feelings. I'll give you my opinion, good or bad (and remember, as you were so fond of pointing out in your previous post, it's only that. My opinion.), and if you are actively working on a project with some semblance of intelligence being used to create it, I will try my best to give you encouragement. But that does not negate my pointing out what I perceive to be flaws or things that can be improved upon.


As I near the end of ANOTHER wall of text, let me say that, yeah. For the most part, I really do NOT just have fun or enjoy playing games anymore. I really wish I could. I still love games, gaming, keeping up with the industry, learning about the history of the industry, and all that. But I'm too old and have seen too much to allow me some childlike exuberance when I play a new game. I know, that's pretty sad, but I'm also pretty sure it's a sentiment shared by a good portion of the members here.


So pardon me for almost going out of my way to look for flaws and things I dislike in games I play. It's been a habit for the better portion of a decade now, and I do not see it changing anytime soon.


Also, pardon me for being so harsh. But again, you know what they say about sleeping dogs.....

[Libby]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

. . . .

RANT AHEAD.

Learn to take criticism, and people will respect you more.

Simply denying any sort of negative criticism about your work will make people dislike you.

I was trying to be helpful and honest, and not give any sort of negative response to you. You took my opinions as if I were stating them as fact and in a round-about way told me to shove them up my ass. Seriously. I'm done. I have tried to be nice, I have tried to be helpful, and when I felt I couldn't be helpful, I was honest and told you in PM that my answer to your question would be disappointing.

I didn't find any secrets because I couldn't make it past the first dungeon, because the writing BORED and ANNOYED me. If you don't want any decent opinion from people at the Pav, then go to the Mag and get your asspattings there.

I've tried and I'm done. Your artistic skill and ability with RPGM3 makes me very jealous, however your attitude simply stinks. Stop being so damn egotistical and realize that just because we don't like your game and don't agree with you, doesn't make us WRONG, it just makes us DIFFERENT.

Sorry, Valk. Screw the hug. I'm done here.

Edit- and, BTW, a relative is going to be more supportive of your game then random people on the internet. I think maybe I am just one of the lucky ones who's mom stopped giving her stickers for her stick figures when she was 12.

I think this thread is making no progress and is only serving to **** people off. I vote it to be locked.

[Wavelength]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

Maybe we can get Rune Gem War once you complete the trilogy? Oh man how I'd like to see that one become a reality...

Quite seriously, the sequel sounds good, all 5 of those changes are going to be for the positive... you know there are a few things that I would change if it were my game, but it's not my game, and I'm just really glad you decided to speed up the battles and reduce the quantity since the beta. I think that was my main complaint; I've since learned that I simply suck at finding my way through dungeons, so it wasn't your fault.

Actually, there's one other thing, and I think we discussed it once before... the Potion Making Witch. I really think there needs to be some element of either figuring out the formulas, or playing a mini-game or choosing a random number or something, to make it more than just "bring an item, get an item." The way it is now, the PMW is like finding the herb instead of the potion, and then having to go through a chore to get the potion. It was a major disappoinment among a lot of pleasant surprises for me when I played.

Um, I think all the discussion going around here has actually been correct, it's one of those rare times that I can say "you're both right" and it really seems like you guys aren't seeing eye to eye. Everyone is saying "I personally didn't like this," and Cryth you're saying "you don't have to like it but I can't think of a way that's gonna be better, that I am going to like more, for my own game." (EDIT: I'm pretty tired right now, so if I misinterpreted something completely just now, please don't be too steamed!) There were just two minor points that I really do take issue with...

"It's not my thing." "I'm not into that." "I don't like that." Pish! That's your personal problem, not a deficiency on the part of any video game.

It's not a deficiency on anyone's part. If you don't find something fun, why play it? I think most FPS's are a snooze. I can see the appeal in them. I can spot a good one by watching it. And there's no way I'm gonna waste my time playing it.

Some of the games that I gave a mediocre rating of 5 or 6 at GameFAQs, I have played them for many more hours than I did the ones that I gave higher scores. It's not about the scores or the ratings or my dopey opinion of how good a game is. It's not about my evaluations of the graphics, sound, gameplay, and other stuff. It's about whether or not we're having genuine fun.

It's like you said, games are about having fun. So shouldn't the rating be about how much fun you had (or, more generally, how much of a positive effect the game had on your mood and being, overall) with the game? You can make the argument that, using me as an example, I should give a 9 out of 10 to an FPS that I can identify as "good" even if I don't have fun with it... but then, why am I playing an FPS in the first place?

[Crythania]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

Sleeping dogs, yadda yadda.

I was correcting something I said in a previous post, for the record. I am receptive to constructive criticism... when it actually is constructive. I previously said that I have no desire to argue. I've stated my case and have little more to say on the subject.

I've said it multiple times before, and you're kinda pushing me to reiterate it yet again: I personally (and this is an opinion again, mind you) find nothing "smart" or "tough" after the first tutorial battle. Once you learn the elements and their strengths and weaknesses, the rest of the game is spent spamming those elements against their inverses. Yeah, you do get some buffs and whatnot with items, but it's the same rote, Fire vs water throughout everything I played in the game. Which, to me, in my opinion, is neither challenging nor all that fun.

The "tough" part has nothing to do with elements. It was about going up against monsters who are closely matched with you. But that's pretty meaningless, as the elemental thing ruins the whole thing for you.

In my estimation, a LOT of the people that come to the Pavilion and stay here do so because their cynicism and jaded-ness finds a home here. I'm sure you do not venture into the Video Game forum here much (if at all), but most of the old-timers/regulars tend to be really jaded about games in general, and I'm no exception. I mean, come on, Cry. We've been playing games since the Atari days. I'm not sure about you, but I am no longer doe-eyed and eager about most new games. It takes a LOT to make me really want to see a game to its finish anymore. Most of what's out there has a "been there, done that," feel to it. Which is why when games like Patapon, Indigo Prophesy, Rez, Viva Piñata, Blast Works, LittleBigPlanet, Katamari Damacy, et al, come out, they make me sit up and take notice. Because they are different. Each does something, in some large or small way, that's never really been done before.


So, yeah. The mag probably has a more open, friendly feel to it, which is why some people over there prefer it to here. But being a 37 year old jaded gamer who's seen it all, and is bored to tears with the status quo, I find my home here at the Pavilion, and find my posts reflecting my cynicism. I refuse to spread happy pills around, just because I'm afraid of hurting someone's feelings. I'll give you my opinion, good or bad (and remember, as you were so fond of pointing out in your previous post, it's only that. My opinion.), and if you are actively working on a project with some semblance of intelligence being used to create it, I will try my best to give you encouragement. But that does not negate my pointing out what I perceive to be flaws or things that can be improved upon.


As I near the end of ANOTHER wall of text, let me say that, yeah. For the most part, I really do NOT just have fun or enjoy playing games anymore. I really wish I could. I still love games, gaming, keeping up with the industry, learning about the history of the industry, and all that. But I'm too old and have seen too much to allow me some childlike exuberance when I play a new game. I know, that's pretty sad, but I'm also pretty sure it's a sentiment shared by a good portion of the members here.

"Lucas hasn't lost the magic. We have."

Speaking of the Atari days... I have "Activision Anthology", "Midway Arcade Treasures", "Namco Museum", and other likeminded stuff for the PS2. Earlier in the year, I played "Star Master" (an old Activision game) and had a blast. I finally beat the whole game after all these years! It was lots of fun and so thrilling to get the par score for the hardest level (the score that earns you those badges they used to offer). I own a Sega Game Gear (portable). There are many games on that little 8-bit system that I still love. To this day, I could play Ms Pac-Man and be entertained by it.

I probably don't approach a new game with "childlike exuberance" like I did long ago. I'm probably jaded in my own way, like anyone else here. But I do play video games for fun. I don't want to lose the magic. When I lose the magic, video games become depressing and lose their appeal altogether.

So pardon me for almost going out of my way to look for flaws and things I dislike in games I play. It's been a habit for the better portion of a decade now, and I do not see it changing anytime soon.

I understand. And I thank you for candidly explaining your point of view. Your honesty and sincerity are much appreciated. I don't want to fight with you or anyone else. I accept you for who you are, and I accept your criticism. I'm not sure there's anything useful I can do with it at the moment. But I accept it, and I understand why you'd find the game tedious. Maybe some day I will make a game that has a chance of appealing to you. Eh, probably not. Oh well. Them's the breaks.

~*~*~

I have never seen a hobby where the people involved are so jaded, cynical, and critical, as they are of video games. Perhaps movies. It's a similar venue of entertainment. I have other hobbies that are much more fulfilling than game design, because I'm able to design something and it's just there. It's neither good nor bad. It doesn't get rated or dissected or torn apart. I build something and it can be what it is, without anyone leveling criticism at it (and without me leveling my own criticism at it). It's much more fulfilling than working hard to create a video game and watching jaded people tear it apart because they don't like it. Video games seem to be a cursed hobby for me, constantly overshadowed by a dark cloud of cynicism.

I'm finished with this thread. I will go off into the West and diminish... Wait a minute, that's from "Lord Of The Rings". Umm... I will, with all due respect, depart once again and go it alone. For there is where I am content.

Since most of the Pavilion is with you, my optimism isn't really welcome here. This is not a place for someone who is trying to keep the magic. It was my mistake to come back. A lesson learned. I thank you again for enlightening me and providing a different point of view than my own. It's been educational.

[Perversion]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

****! Holding down backspace on my keyboard for close to 7 minutes to quote one paragraph of an earlier post of yours was rendered moot by your same-day reply above.



I'm sorry you feel this way, Cry. Nobody is out to get you. Nobody is attacking your character (well, at least, I'm not). It is not my intention to chase you away from this community. I am merely trying to explain to you why the response you are getting to your ideas differs between here and the mag. It has nothing to do with you, or a game you make. It has to do with the fact that a lot of us are cynical bastards, and nothing is going to change that. If you feel safer and more secure and less stressed at the mag, by all means, spend your time there. This place is not for everyone. You DO need a thick skin to endure here a lot of the time. Those of us who survive the trial by fire come to call this place home. Those who don't....well, to be facetious and quote a line from Being John Malkovich, "Well, who cares about them anyway?"

I'm not gonna beg you to stay, or try to change your mind. If this place causes you undue mental stress, by all means, it is not healthy for you to be here. I hope to have some correspondence with you in the future (and I'm sure I will; as a current Free Forum topic insinuates, the Pav is like Hotel California....you can check out, but you can never leave). If not, good luck in your future endeavours, and please, for your own sake, try to stop reading too much into and overanalyzing every post made in this topic and any others concerning you and your work. I think you'll be a much happier person if you do.

[Crythania]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

Wavy,

Thanks for your support. I find your presence on this thread to be a breath of fresh air.

RGW has become a story. I'm not sure how I'd make it into a game. I used most of the gameplay ideas I had for it in ROL, and I made ROL because I wasn't confident in my ability to make RGW. I don't know if it would be a good game. It would be a lot of story and dialogue, but not much to interact with.

I think you'd like the "Special Wimp Edition" because you'd be able to zip through the battles faster. But if you don't like the labyrinthine environments, that's probably not gonna help much. I'm like Obright. I like complicated labyrinths, especially nonlinear mazes. But linear ones are fine, too.

My sister didn't like the PMW at all. She got bored with it. She tends to suffer from ADD when doing anything except fighting monsters, collecting their loot, and... finding more monsters to fight. When she started playing the game and the prologue ended, she said, "Okay, where do I go to kill people?" She didn't talk to hardly any of the townspeople. Watching her play the game was... interesting.

About my experiences with the reviews and commercial games... I did a few reviews too soon. There were a couple games that I played through once, wrote up my review, gave it a 5 or whatever, and then I found myself coming back to it later and enjoying it more than I did at first. I got it right a few times. There are a few games that I played, gave an 8 or 9, and then continued to enjoy them. Eventually, I started to review the games based on how much fun they were for me. There are a couple of bad games that I really enjoyed. I acknowledge that they're far from the best, but I had more fun with them than I did with others that are much better. Sometimes a bad game can be fun to play.

Thanks for your support for the sequel. I agree, those 5 points will hopefully make a big difference (and not all of them were points of constructive criticism that I came up with on my own).

Pervy,

I like you. I think you're smart, talented, and mature. You make me feel like you're listening to what I say and are taking it to heart. You explained your point of view very well, and I wasn't offended by anything. I hope I've explained my point of view as well as you have yours. I'm not offended, and I didn't take anything personally.

I'm sorry if I came across a bit harsh earlier. I just didn't understand. Now that I understand where you're coming from... well, that makes all the difference. I appreciate your interest in my endeavors, and I am glad that we have gotten to know one another. It's also nice to meet someone who grew up going to the arcades and playing Atari 2600 at home. Those were magical times for me. I remember them fondly.

Anyway, I'm sorry for sounding harsh and judgmental earlier. I understand why you're jaded. I maintain an optimistic outlook on my endeavors with RPG Maker 3. I'm looking forward to getting more games made. If they're good or if they suck, it doesn't matter. I'll enjoy them all the same.

This place is a stressful place to be, though. Criticism and negativity discourage me. I didn't realize you were being critical out of a genuine interest in my endeavors until you said so. I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. I do feel more welcome at other sites. But I understand that you're trying your best to make me feel welcome here, too. I appreciate that. Thank you.

I'd like to stay and converse with you and Wavy some more. I welcome your conversation and friendliness. But I'm also gonna have to say, don't expect much from my future games. From what I've seen here, they're all going to be less than spectacular for you. That's fine. I don't require that everyone like me or my games. They're just games.

(Sorry it took so long to reply. I've been spending a lot of time with my girlfriend lately at her place, where I don't get online as often as I do at home.)

[Valkysas]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

It seems Crythania has left the RPGM community.

Posted at the mag:

I am sorry to say that I am unable to continue working with RPG Maker.

Every time I try to motivate myself to work on my game, my thoughts invariably turn toward the RPG Maker community and how it has effortlessly and without remorse kicked me in the face so many times (especially the people over at the Pavilion). I'm afraid I have been irreparably damaged by the community as a whole (well, mostly by certain individuals in the community, but they're ingrained in the community, and I can't be a part of it without seeing them).

I tried to leave both communities with the intent of using the sites for their intended purpose (to publish finished games). I thought it would help me to get more work done and make more games. It didn't. The wounds didn't heal. My eyes turned to other creative endeavors that ultimately turned out to be more satisfying and rewarding than game design. I came back to RPG Maker mostly because a friend asked me to playtest his game for him, and I thought "Yeah, I've got this unfinished project hanging over my head. I should try to finish it." I've been trying, but I think it's time to face the fact that my heart just isn't in it anymore. I end up procrastinating, doing other things, time passes, and I have nothing to show for it.

My heart isn't in it. Not like it was when I made the first game. I can't approach it with the innocent, ignorant optimism that I once had. Now that I know what the RPG Maker community is all about, and what peoples' attitudes are, it has cast a shadow over all that I had hoped to achieve. The jadedness. The cynicism. The vile, critical attitudes of individuals. The apathy of the community as a whole. I no longer much care or desire to work hard and make more games for a community that doesn't really want them anyway. I can make better use of my time.

I have been damaged badly, and I can't recover from it. Just for clarity's sake, it's mostly the Pavilion that has damaged me. Thanks go out to all the folks there for discouraging me beyond repair.

This game project that I have been trying to work on is no longer something that I feel good about. I associate it with the RPG Maker community, which has hurt my feelings and discouraged me to death. It's incredibly difficult to maintain an air of optimism when I get kicked in the face for merely opening my mouth about something.

My current project has become a dark cloud over my head. Because it is unfinished, but also because I know how it'll be received. Knowledge changes everything. I wish I could erase my memory and go back to the optimism and fascination that I had before I joined the RPG Maker Pavilion and Mag, before I learned what I can expect (and not expect) from the community. As it stands now, I feel more compelled to erase my memory cards and sell my copy of RPG Maker 3 than continue working on my game.

For peace of mind's sake, I need to acknowledge and move on. I need to either work and finish the game, or decide to not finish it at all. As time goes by and I keep saying to myself "I'll do it later", I find myself drawn toward the latter. Perhaps it's better to throw in the towel, forget about what could've been, and turn my eyes on other things and endeavors that will be truly satisfying.

One thing I've learned about dreams and having something that you really want or wish could be a reality... Sometimes it's better just as a fantasy. Sometimes... some things aren't as good when they're made real. One of my dreams was to make many games with RPG Maker 3. Maybe that's not what I should be trying to do. Maybe that's not where I belong. Perhaps I've been headed in the wrong direction.

I'm closing shop, turning the page, and closing out this chapter of my creative endeavors. Farewell to all. I'm sorry I was unable to contribute more games to the RPG Maker community. It's really quite sad considering how much I wanted to accomplish. But them's the breaks. I find myself unable to carry on.

Sometimes, "The only winning move is not to play."

It's Crythania's fault he took everything the way he did. he got criticism, and it made him mad. he could have accepted it, or ignored it and continued to make the game the way he wanted to. he did neither. he blamed everyone else and ran away.

NOT THE FIRST TIME HE HAS DONE THIS, EITHER. He previously manipulated the pavilion staff into un-knowingly deleting topics in his forum that he was yelling at people in.

look here: http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/...ead.php?t=9716

Yeah, it's OUR fault you take every criticism as a personal attack. it's OUR fault that you act like a child every time someone says something you don't like.

meh.

[Wavelength]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

Geez, I haven't seen such defeatist talk in a long, long time.

I really can't get behind what Cryth is saying. No one here treated him poorly. I wish he wouldn't have taken things so personally.

Still, I'm sorry he feels this way. It's sad to see, because it's never a nice feeling to feel so defeated, and if he does deserve to leave, that's certainly a loss to our library and community alike.

[Stormy]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

I read that, and at first you were talking about Catharsis/Raithwall. That would have made A LOT more sense, but this is ridiculous.

[Libby]

Re: The Raiders Of Lekunder: SWE

But honestly, how long will he stay away? He said he would never come back here, and yet he did.

Edit- Upon further thought, I KNOW for a fact that he is going to read this. I know he doesn't particularly dislike me, just my opinion. And honestly, I'm sick of this bull****. You are a grown man and you know better. You are not a child. I have three-year-olds in my preschool class that throw less tantrums after having a ball thrown at their head then you do over a simple opinion. STOP BEING SCARED OF THE TRUTH. Don't live behind a lie of perfection to protect your little world. You brought this stuff upon yourself, so stop playing the victim. NO ONE IS FOOLED.

Dammit, I need to find my screen name over there so I can go defends us.

Edit: It's still flaming. I've edited out what I think was flaming rather than criticism. Please feel free to re-edit this post if you feel I have removed any of your intended meaning, but don't call names. ~Wave