Forest of Torment

[lilwilddude]

In my game there will be an area called the Forest of Torment. By the name you can probably guess how hard and tormenting it is. Do you think it would be wise to contain a text document with my game that has some hints as how to complete it? (it's a really long forest)

[Rodak]

Re: Forest of Torment

This idea was discussed recently here:

http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/...hlight=manuals

I like the idea and will start including text files with my games (in the zip folder) in the future.

Peace.

[lilwilddude]

Re: Forest of Torment

Thanks. I think I will include a manual. Actually, It's more like a page of hints for the forest. I don't want it to be TOO easy. but I don't want people to quit playing because of the stupid forest level.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Forest of Torment

Is it an optional dungeon?

[Ryner]

Re: Forest of Torment

Nobody wants to have to read an outside document while playing a console game. Put the tips in-game.

[lilwilddude]

Re: Forest of Torment

Is it an optional dungeon?

No. You have to go through it.

Nobody wants to have to read an outside document while playing a console game. Put the tips in-game.

Good idea.. That's alot better, Now I don't have to type up a text document..

[Gulshog]

Re: Forest of Torment

My manual is currently at 20 pages. That's about 4 pages of introduction and history, and then 16 pages of characters. Each character gets their own page, with a sketch drawn by me, race, class, stats, and starting skills and magic spells.

[DarkwingChuck]

Re: Forest of Torment

Nobody wants to have to read an outside document while playing a console game. Put the tips in-game.

I personally don't like in-game hints and tutorials. If the people in the first town keep talking to me about inventory screens and pressing the X button it makes the story of the game feel fake. It's extremely difficult to immerse yourself in a game when you're reading messages like that.

[WilliamKirk]

Re: Forest of Torment

What Ryner meant was that tips in where to go next, what you have to do to advance, and for solving specific puzzles should be in-game.

I highly recommend you change your plans completely. This sounds absolutely horrific. Have you played any games that frustrated you before? Did you enjoy getting frustrated by them? Hell, did you enjoy anything at all in any game that has frustrated you? What do you remember most about those games now? Is that what you want your time effort to produce? I don't mean to discourage you from making your game, but rather present my opinion in a manner of which you can personally understand in an effort to enlighten you to better game evaluation.

[Rodak]

Re: Forest of Torment

Nobody wants to have to read an outside document while playing a console game. Put the tips in-game.

You're getting quoted a lot here!

I actually made a series of "Help Files" as part of the custom user menu system for Videogamedrome (the demo has been posted for a while now), but feel detailed info should be in a seperate document. If clues to all the puzzles and such are that accessable people may abuse them. If they have to go get a printout or read something seperate, they may try a little harder at the puzzles before seeking help.

The point is that some things require explanation and there are many way to go about offering it. Use 'em all!

Peace.

[WilliamKirk]

Re: Forest of Torment

You took the words right out of my mouth Rodak!! I planned to do that in my game yesterday here http://doansdomain.proboards27.com/i...ead=1126455625

edit: but I still think puzzle hints and such are best when in the game. You could very easily make the player pick up a manual in the game too, if that's what it'll end up taking. I myself am a HUGE not-puzzle fan so I've never really been in a situation like this with my game.

[lilwilddude]

Re: Forest of Torment

It's not really that bad.. Just a big maze. That's all. I'm gonna have easy monsters and set the encounter rate to 'low' Like the Lost woods in Zelda Games. (a maze like in LTTP. And another maze like OOT) Kinda put together. But there will even be a town in the middle to rest at. And people may give you hints there. (they WOULD know everything about the woods. Seeing as they live there.) And also, I'm planning on having a manual. Like, menu and controls, story and character bios.

[Jugem]

Re: Forest of Torment

Here's my two cents. If you're creating a tough/puzzling area for your game, you're doing so because you want to challenge the player. So why provide a text document with hints on how to advance through it? That totally defeats the purpose of creating that area. It's like you want to challenge the player, and then hold their hand through it. But then it's no longer a challenge. So here's what I suggest. If you're happy with the challenge, then keep it. But don't create a seperate document with hints. If you think the challenge is cheap/unfair/too frustrating, then don't have it there in the first place. But in the latter case, don't keep it and cover it up with a hints document. If you have in game tips, they should still require the player to think to figure out what the tips mean, or how they apply to the situation, so there is still a challenge. So even then, those tips/hints should not hold the player's hand.

[Rodak]

Re: Forest of Torment

Well, companies make a lot of money on strategy guides, so there must be something to it.

The concept is valid if there are places the player might "get stuck" and then just drop the game you worked so hard making! Here's an example of why I support the idea:

In The Clean Underwear Quest, the path to the Poopy Pyramid is a little complex, but I felt easy to figure out. You reach an island with a cannon. The cannon asks if you wish "to get blasted out of it?" If you say yes, it shoots you to the island to the north with a cool VFX monster to fight. But if you say no, it rotates 90 degrees and asks again, pointing out that now it is pointing directly at the Poopy Pyramid and it may be dangerous.

Sounds simple, right... Well a large percent of those who played it found that they could not locate the Poopy Pyramid. They could not say No! I did not foresee anyone getting stuck there. I thought it was not even a puzzle. But people got stuck and stopped playing. Naturally I posted the solution quickly because I did not want people to just stop playing.

So, if there is a puzzle or something that can impede progress through the game, you risk losing your audience.

The answer is to either move the puzzles so they can't impede progress, or include information somewhere. Or, of course, not caring if people can't play your game.

If somebody plays enough of my work to get stuck (and frustrated even!) I'll take it as a compliment and try to help them out in return. I even have one puzzle that requires a timed button press. It's tricky and I added a counter to see how many times they tried and failed. This will allow me to slow it down after a large number of failed attempts... sort of a reward for persistence.

Personally I would not like it if I stumped people with puzzles to the point where they quit playing. I do like to challenge the player, but not frustrate them to the point of departure.

But your point is taken. That's why I suggested putting subtle hints in game, less subtle hints in the in-game help files, and nearly full explanations in the text file (clearly labeled as spoilers).

Peace.

[Jugem]

Re: Forest of Torment

But if people get stuck and stop playing, it's probably because either the section they got stuck in is very cheap/unfair, or because the game wasn't fun enough for them to keep trying to work their way through it. Either way, creating a tips/hints document doesn't solve the problem; it just covers it up. You're better off trying to make it not so cheap/unfair, or making the game more fun and more compelling so that the player will continue playing until they figure it out. But there's not much fun involved in playing a game while using a walkthrough. As I said, it just totally defeats the purpose of having any challenging puzzles there in the first place.