Fleshing Out Your Game

[Dallas Alvis II]

I've been putting this off for a bit, but I had been wanting to resurrect this topic from the dead and bring it back to the Pavilion ever since it had been started and lost both in the RPGM Garden as well as in the Pavilion. As some of you may already be familiar with the idea of this thread, it is an open topic where everyone is free to toss in their own two cents on making a game.

It's primary focus was originally catered to focus on RPGs, or to be more specific, stories, features and avoiding common pitfalls. But this time, it doesn't have to be as limited. I have realized times have changed and people have done more with the Maker games that some would have not seen possible several years ago (several RPGM1 games come to mind, specifically).

When giving your own feedback, I ask as I had before in the original topic. Please be reasonably legible so that everyone can understand the general idea of what you are trying to enlighten upon. You don't have to be perfect, but please try to be as detailed and clean as you can be; as this is meant to be informative.

I've always enjoyed sharing my ideas and like reading what other people suggest even more. Despite attitude and ego, we are all quite a... creative collective of individuals here.

I will submit some more material a bit later, after I've touched up the ones I have so far on my word document (I'm practically obsessive-compulsive). But feel free to place any creative pointers, tips, things to avoid...etc., etc.

Edit: Also, don't get discouraged if "somebody-else-posts-your-idea", if you have your own spin, or to add on to (etc.) on what someone else suggested: Please, post it up. Ideas can evolve and expand and that's what this thread is for.

Try to make your world real... (RPG/Adventure related)

I and several others mentioned this in the past, but one of my peeves in some old-school RPGs is that the world always seemed kind of bland. I'm not talking about graphics nearly as much as I'm refering to the world's people. Towns could have 30 people in it but there are only 2 houses and a few shops (I realize with RPGM3, this can be a different problem). To add to that, out of 30 people, only 5 or so had names. But a guard was just "Guard", townspeople were "Man","Woman","Farmer", etc. Try to make it seem like they actually live in town and that they are at least a somebody. Sure, Joe blow doesn't go out slaying Dragons and mack on the elvish ladies like how the PC does...but at least give the man a name or something.

There is also real world issues to consider and how the locals are affected by it. Yes, the "Evil Government" placed a "no-magic" law on the city, but what else does that do? Things like this tend to have a ripple-effect on the world. Maybe the "Evil Ruler" decides then to designate his own forces to hunt down and kill all mages in the land he controls. Which could mean he is spending money on training a special unit to slay wizards. What is it doing to the economy? How do the people feel about it? Does everyone agree with it? There are many new problems and personal conflicts that just one world event can do. Give it thought and try placing yourself in these peoples shoes.

[Ωbright]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

Well, one thing I can say is that it's much easier to just go through the character portrait sprites, find ones that you like, and try and build characters from your reactions to those portraits. It's not impossible to work the opposite way, and find 'the perfect sprite' for your characters, but it's certainly more frustrating and time-consuming, and there's no guarantee that you'll find anything acceptable, even after all that work.

I guess it all goes back to the 'working with the software, rather than against it' idea.

[Dallas Alvis II]

I had the same problem in RPGM3. I finally matched up my playable characters up with relatively appropriate models. Even some villians too. I don't think too many of my generics are getting portraits because of that problem unless they show up in the Storyteller, of course.

The Arch-Rival... (Character & Story Related)

Someone also provided an impressively detailed guide on creating a believeable villian (If memory serves, that would be Ryner but I might be wrong on that one). I have a rather romantic take on making characters as believeable as they can be (and it is perhaps something I find the most challenging). This can be said of the story's antagonist and an optional enemy of sorts to one of the main characters in the story. One example that comes to mind is Seifer Almasy from Final Fantasy VIII, whom always had to prove himself better than Squall Leonheart.

Taking that into consideration, The Rival usually tends to be affilated with the main character but it doesn't always have to be that intense. They could be something of a nemesis to another character within the adventure and it does not have to be as dire as some of these relationships have been portrayed.

My concept of "The Rival" can be identical with the villian's or can become something entirely different. The Arch-Rival acts as something of an antagonist to one of these heroes, but that does not necessarily mean that you have make him/her the sole villian of the story (he doesn't even necessarily need to be a "bad guy" at all, actually). They can be something of a wild-card, seeking to prove that they are better than the hero. Yet at the same time, sees The Villian as a nuisance to his/her goals, getting in the way of proving his or herself against that hero. Of course, when using this sort of personality (like with any critical character) it is best to try to determine a motivation and why they are feeling in such a way. I could also note that the mystery factor of this kind of character also opens some considerable flexibility in the storyline if appropriately applied.

Character Build Complex...(RPG/Action RPG related)

One of the many exciting elements to any good game is character building, and nine times out of ten, this is derived from battle of some kind. I'm going to be loose with this bit of advice, though, I all-too-well understand the limitations some of the Makers (RPGM's 1 & 3, in particular).

When a game can get me attached to the structure of growth, how a character can grow from a whelp to a god in terms of statistics, abilities, attacks, etc. I can't put the controller down. As some of you know, I'm a die-hard sucker for Marvel: Ultimate Alliance which has this effect on me where I could grow any Marvel hero in the game and just unleash their supernatural might on foes with their incredible powers.

This may seem like a bad example: MUA is an Action RPG, whereas two of the three Makers I possess utilize hard-coded, Turn-Based Combat. But I must note that I am not refering to battle systems so much as I am pointing to the actual growth of characters and their abilities. As far as this aspect is concerned, I need to stress two things that are crucial in this:

1. Balance is essential; for instance, avoid creating a character that progresses too quickly in abilities when compared to other characters. If you risk doing this, at least apply an appropriate anchor for them. Not paying enough attention to this can lead to this character removing a need for some of the other characters. If they are a "temporary" or "Guest" character (like Final Fantasy XII), this can be overlooked to a reasonable degree because they are not going to be a permenant asset to the team. The inverse of that example holds true as well.

2. Variety is beautiful; and where a wide-range of different sorts of abilities can really give way for distinguishing what characters you like better for what. This actually is more of the "game-flesher" of the two, well, for me it is. Employing this helps each character stand alone in their own right as far as their personality and their capabilites. Please, please, believe me when I say that making a bunch of practically identical abilities in looks, behaviors, etc. makes a game feel a lot smaller.

Here's an example of using some balance and variety: Two comparable skills in a game I'm toying with for RPGM3; Smokescreen and Rally. One of the characters, a "Rogue", eventually gains a distracting smoke attack that he can use to blind an entire group of enemies (decreasing enemy defense). Then there is another character, a "Knight", that acquires a rallying ability later on so that she may inspire might in the party (increasing ally attack power). Here's one broken-down difference in the skills themselves. Smokescreen is not as effective in points as Rally, but it is a lot less costly than the Knight's technique. This helps establish some overall equality and it adds each character some unique flavor all at once. Already, the Rogue looks even more like an opportunist and the Knight appears to be more of an honor-bound valiant.

I will choose free will... (Story & Adventure)

Free will is something that isn't always easy to maintain in some games. Especially when that games that have a beginning and an end. Open-ended games commonly encourage to give players a lot of freedom and control. But with an 'A to B' plot, it is not an obvious feature to apply. However, when intergrated in suitable situations, this atmosphere can even enhance that said game's replay value. There are many ways to produce this sort of flexibility, such as (but not limited to) the following:

1. Including a large portion of multiple-choice options in dialogue. This details an experience of playing as the game's protagonist.

2. Optional content allows some change in pace as many professionally made games have proven over the years. From side quests, hidden characters, secret or hard to find items and areas.

3. If kept in check, providing a more openly accessible world may not be such a bad idea. I am refering to games like Zelda: A Link To The Past (SNES) and Shadowrun(Genesis) that have this as a feature in their 'A-B' plot. They give you pretty much all of the world to explore at your leisure. A bonus in what made these games great for me was the fact that, how you got to 'Point B' was entirely up to the player. Let's use the reference to Zelda; where you start from the beginning at Link's home, playing the game in virtually any order (after the first quest) but always ending up with the stand against Ganon at the end.

[1ce]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

While working on Donkey Kong, a rather unconventional game for RPGM1, I fleshed the game out by working on it more than usual. I would ask myself constantly, "What can I do to make this better?" This caused me to continually think about ways to expand and polish the game that I had nearly finished. For example, during many playthroughs I realized that reading the same text for every difficulty level was a little silly. It took a little time, but I managed to create new dialogue boxes for every different difficulty level, so the characters said different things to the player. This helped to make the game that much more polished.

[Ryner]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

Try to make your world real... (RPG/Adventure related)
To add to that, out of 30 people, only 5 or so had names. But a guard was just "Guard", townspeople were "Man","Woman","Farmer", etc. Try to make it seem like they actually live in town and that they are at least a somebody. Sure, Joe blow doesn't go out slaying Dragons and mack on the elvish ladies like how the PC does...but at least give the man a name or something.

The problem with this is it can end up being pointless extra work (something you need to adamantly avoid in your game). There are a hundreds of NPC townsfolk in Oblivion, and sure they all have names, but only like five of them actually matter.

I kind of like what Square did in FFXII, where the towns are full of people but you only have the option to talk to some of them. This accomplishes several things for you if you do it in your own game:

1. Keeps your town looking big while limiting the amount of work you have to do.
2. Saves time for the player, letting him avoid having to talk to every NPC he sees just in case one of them has something important to say and only getting two dozen "Welcome to our town!"s.

3. If kept in check, providing a more openly accessible world may not be such a bad idea. I am refering to games like Zelda: A Link To The Past (SNES) and Shadowrun(Genesis) that have this as a feature in their 'A-B' plot. They give you pretty much all of the world to explore at your leisure. A bonus in what made these games great for me was the fact that, how you got to 'Point B' was entirely up to the player. Let's use the reference to Zelda; where you start from the beginning at Link's home, playing the game in virtually any order (after the first quest) but always ending up with the stand against Ganon at the end.

When doing this, make sure you give your player at least some direction. It's far too easy to overwhelm and possibly confuse a player with big open worlds and little idea of where to go next. Also, don't go PO'ing people by have points accessible on the map but not yet usable to him, like a cave he can walk up to but not enter without a magic stone that is obtained later in the game. This is just going to make the player angry that he took the time to go to this new location for absolutely no reason. If you really want to do this, in a "hey look come back to this place later!" kind of way, then put the cave right next to another area the player is already going to. That way it takes a grand total of thirty seconds to enter the new area, look at the cave, find out you have to come back later, and leave.

[Valkysas]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

console RPG Makers are a pain in the ass to make feel like real, populated worlds because of the memory limits. I attempted to do it in RPG Maker 1 with "Legend of Pants" which was laid out much like link to the past. the entire game world was made up of dungeon maps linked together, and each land mass or region was on a completely different system card. every person had a home (unless they were actually homeless) everyone had unique dialog. in the end, it used around 7 system cards, and around 12 scenario cards. it was playable, it was complete, but it was such a pain in the ass to play that I never bothered releasing it. when playing one branch of a game requires you two load 3 different memory card files in a half hour, the game is fundamentally broken, and no one should be expected to play it. to this day, the game's gme files are sitting on a CD-R, and will never be released to the public. its that horrible of an experience.

so learn from my mistake, and never, ever do the above thing on a console RPG Maker.

[Ωbright]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

I know I'm always rattling on about templates to map out the stat/cost curves of equips, characters, and skills, but I swear to you... They help immensely. You establish a beginning weapon (just as an example) and an 'ultimate weapon' for each type. Then you fill in all of the increments. That way you're not getting 4 weapons in a row with almost unnoticable differences in strength followed by another that suddenly makes you godly. You can see all of the weapons together, and that really helps with balance and adds a smoother flow to the progression.

There is also real world issues to consider and how the locals are affected by it. Yes, the "Evil Government" placed a "no-magic" law on the city, but what else does that do? Things like this tend to have a ripple-effect on the world. Maybe the "Evil Ruler" decides then to designate his own forces to hunt down and kill all mages in the land he controls. Which could mean he is spending money on training a special unit to slay wizards. What is it doing to the economy? How do the people feel about it? Does everyone agree with it? There are many new problems and personal conflicts that just one world event can do. Give it thought and try placing yourself in these peoples shoes.

I can't agree with this more. The deeper you think about these repercussions, the more integrated and real the game world feels.

You want to keep people immersed in the game world, and if people are constantly questioning everything, it makes that difficult. There's a lot to be said for suspension of disbelief, but you can only suspend it so far. I mean, give me SOME kind of explanation that fits in with the game world's mechanics. "It's caused by the power of the seven magic crystals." Ok. It may not be the BEST explanation, but it's an explanation, and I can roll with that.

It's the same with RM3 world maps that have invisible walls (map edges). It enrages me when I run up against one. WHY can't I go over there? I, as a player, know exactly why. It's because of the maker itself. But see, that pulls me out of the game world. Give me a good reason WHY I can't go there. Maybe there's a force field, or a river or mountain or cliff... SOMEthing.

Also, don't go PO'ing people by have points accessible on the map but not yet usable to him, like a cave he can walk up to but not enter without a magic stone that is obtained later in the game. This is just going to make the player angry that he took the time to go to this new location for absolutely no reason.

GOD YES.

*Glares at Phantasy Star 3*

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

console RPG Makers are a pain in the ass to make feel like real, populated worlds because of the memory limits. I attempted to do it in RPG Maker 1 with "Legend of Pants" which was laid out much like link to the past. the entire game world was made up of dungeon maps linked together, and each land mass or region was on a completely different system card. every person had a home (unless they were actually homeless) everyone had unique dialog. in the end, it used around 7 system cards, and around 12 scenario cards. it was playable, it was complete, but it was such a pain in the ass to play that I never bothered releasing it. when playing one branch of a game requires you two load 3 different memory card files in a half hour, the game is fundamentally broken, and no one should be expected to play it. to this day, the game's gme files are sitting on a CD-R, and will never be released to the public. its that horrible of an experience.

so learn from my mistake, and never, ever do the above thing on a console RPG Maker.

I've tried that with RPG Maker 1 with my first serious project until I lost the damn data (pre-Army). It does chew up memory if there isnt a balance. I am playing around with RPG Maker 1 and 3, and so far, RPG Maker 3 seems to work better with this idea since it seems easier to make a more open-world versus something of a world that pulls you by the nose. In theory, I think you can do the same with 2 just as well, but I am not as familiar with that software. But honestly, it doesn't take up that much work to at least name some people. I realize the town is almost always the player's stepping stone, but there are at least small ways to make it look like people actually live there. But that's a good point. It sounds like you over-did it though.

Find a balance, don't take that too far. But it really isn't a bad idea to try with on a Maker with some moderation, and if you've got the energy for it. But going extreme with it can quickly burn memory and I didn't realize that til you brought that up. I remember my biggest city in my RPGM1 project 'Blades & Storms' was going to be 5 dungeons (+ 2 more if you add the exterior and interior of the castle). After making just the dungeons and scenerio data for about 80% of that given city it took up a massive chunk in memory.

The problem with this is it can end up being pointless extra work (something you need to adamantly avoid in your game). There are a hundreds of NPC townsfolk in Oblivion, and sure they all have names, but only like five of them actually matter.

I kind of like what Square did in FFXII, where the towns are full of people but you only have the option to talk to some of them. This accomplishes several things for you if you do it in your own game:

1. Keeps your town looking big while limiting the amount of work you have to do.
2. Saves time for the player, letting him avoid having to talk to every NPC he sees just in case one of them has something important to say and only getting two dozen "Welcome to our town!"s.

MUA does that too. I remember in Stark's Tower you could talk to Nick Fury, Black Widow, etc. but you can't talk to any of Tony Stark's employees (except Jarvis). But the tower still looked busy and everyone seemed to be working. But that's a good idea, actually, for the game and the designer. As you said it saves time for other things, the world still looks populated and... realistically (when you think about it) the Hero shouldn't really have all the time in the world to talk to all these characters when chances are, he/she has other stuff they need to be doing. Unless the hero is investigating something though.

The 4th Wall...(Story)

For people who watched Pro Wresting as a kid, like I have... this was called "Kayfabe" I think. Movies do this too, like Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back.

Basically it is when your characters acknowledge that they have an audience (the Player, in this case) and a lot of games do this a little bit to be funny (or to help the player in a "Tutorial" fashion). Unless you are making a game that is purely comedy or a parody game...RARELY BREAK THE 4TH WALL. It kills the story if you do so in a poorly timed fashion. There are rare moments that games do this that give a humorous relief to stories that are serious. But usually it is done with a character that is often used for comic relief. Be careful when you acknowledge the player in the game's story.

Great cutscene...what am I supposed to do now?... (Story/Adventure)

Can't tell you enough how much this has happened to me. I'll watch a dramatic scene in a game that was awesome and made me smile ear-to-ear...only to frown moments later when I get back in control to find out I forgot completely what I was supposed to do. Have a way to REMIND the player the agenda. Most RPGs had a "Buddy" system, where somebody in the party after that cutscene would at least say "Alright, now we should really start heading for [The Castle] now." Some have a journal; I've tried that system in my Save Points for RPGM1. You could open a book, save and get hints on what to do next based on switches. Point is, have some way of refreshing the players memory on the next thing they need to do for their adventure. Getting lost is not fun (yes, this means you Dragon Warrior VII).

[Ryner]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

This is more of a side tip, and I don't know how possible it is on the console RPG Makers, but I think one of the most important things I ever did was taking the time to learn the math involved in the battle formulas for XP/VX. Balancing has become 100 times easier since I learned a point of ATK equaled 4 damage, a point of DEF subtracted 2, etc.

[Valkysas]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

I know that stuff is documented for RPG Maker 1 and 2 (along with experience tables and other stuff), but no idea if it is for 3.

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Fleshing Out Your Game

I'm pretty familiar with RPGM1's formula (Between Intro1, Dias Flac and a few others, they broke it down pretty well). And I'd be surprised if it isn't on Tutorial section of the site. I have a grasp or feel for RPGM3's though I'd be stumped as to relay it on here (as I'm not 100% sure about all of it's details, yet). As for RPGM2, I have no idea what so ever...I'm trying to get familiar with using the software itself.

Edit: Dammit, I found this on an old Pavilion board... but the reference Intro posted in that thread is now gone (understandable since all of that is old data and the Pavilion no longer uses that forum). I remember the guide on RPGM1's battle system was broken down for simplicity (though it's half-for-half rule was pretty much all you needed to know. But there were other things that were considered as far as "about how much in percentage should regular enemies damage?" and so on. I'm also looking for any possible RPGM2 + 3 resources as far as the conventional battle systems. I think I'm going to leave RPGM2 to any of the pros here. Anybody eager to take this on? I'm doing some more research for 3, though.