Wrong, or too right?

[Hikari no Kaze]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

^You'd hate Legend of Mana then. It has so many items and a good majority of them are rather useless.

Legend of Mana is the Best Game of All Time.

I use the useless items for altering/tempering armor/weapons. The really useless ones I sell.

The Ultra-Deep story makes up for the Messy Scroll.

Speaking of altering/tempering armor/weapons, wouldn't that be a great use for otherwise useless items in a game such as this one?

Ultra-Deep story is another great thing that can be put in RM3 games...

[Rodak]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

I voted none.

It is Silliness that makes or breaks a game for me.

If it takes itself too seriously, I can't take it seriously.

Well written and entertaining garbage can be Far More Enjoyable than too serious a time. No matter how wel done!

But my brain is has been building up that pesky static cling again, and things may be otherwise.

[Crythania]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

I voted "None", too. Here's why...

1. Items that could be turned in for special weapons/stat boosts. That's your best idea here. It works. Although it seems like a built-in cheat to me (special thing that gives you an edge over the opposition). I think the player should have to find these things, spend some time searching for them, or solve puzzles to get them. I did some stuff along these lines in "Raiders Of Lekunder". Unique bonus accessories that can give you a nasty edge, and you gotta solve a puzzle (of sorts) to get your paws on them. Does it work? I dunno. It works for me.

I wouldn't have ordinary items just laying around that you can find and then turn in for uber-powerful weapons or stat boosts, though.

Also, I was thinking of doing a built-in cheat system for "Raiders Of Lekunder". I did a poll on the board over at GameFAQs, much like you're doing here. One guy noted that anyone can just go into the editor and change character stats or other things if they find the game to be too hard. Good point. Saved me the trouble of doing the built-in cheats.

2. A slew of useless items. No! Definitely not. They're gonna take up space in the inventory and annoy me. Here are some counter ideas...

Have an event like a barrel or a box, with a text message that says the party found some useless junk of some sort. An old copy of "Barbarian Warlords Monthly", or some old rusty mining tools, or a cobra's nest with some cobra eggs, whatever. Place all kinds of these events around, in dungeons and places you can go. It gets your point across that we're finding useless junk without cramming the inventory full of it. Our heroes should be able to recognize junk from something that's useful.

If you'd really like to have useless items that the party is lugging around, you could follow in my footsteps. Have valuable treasures that our heroes can find (treasure items). Like, say, a Jewel Encrusted Egg, Gold Candelabra, Silver Chalice, Valuable Painting... Anyone play the classic Zork text adventures? Then have a guy in town who's interested in buying these things. That'll also make your gold collecting more interesting than just looting it off of monsters. There'll be something else to be on the lookout for that you can sell for gold.

3. Replay from the beginning with end-game stats. No. The game has to end some time. Let it end. If the game is good enough, if it holds my interest, I'll play it again from the very beginning. Diablo offered the option to start over. I tried it after having reached the final level, and it bored me because my character was uber-powerful against the early game monsters. I don't understand the appeal of starting over with an end-game party.

Replaying from the beginning has some really good potential, considering that a lot of people like to lvl. up their characters, or like to replay games they like, but don't like to go through the whole stinkin lvl. up process, so thats pretty cool.

Here's an idea: Design your game so that it's streamlined from beginning to end, with no need for that "stinkin' level-up process". If the "stinkin' level-up process" is so boring, why do we put up with it in the first place?

4. A boss who can be challenged any time. You know, a lot of this sounds like it was inspired by Chrono Trigger. I didn't understand the appeal then, and I don't understand it now. It wasn't that great of a game. I don't understand the appeal of multiple endings and good/evil paths. In most cases, I'm not going through all those random encounters and/or other rigmarole just to see a different ending or find out what happens if I choose the "evil" option. It's all a replay value gimmick that doesn't work for me. A game's quality and fun factor will decide for me if I play it again.

One of the rules for songwriting is to keep it short and sweet. If there's a 3-minute song that blows me away, I'll listen to it over and over. If there's a 6-minute song that blows me away, chances are it's a bit too repetitive and thus loses its appeal after a while. Unfortunately, I didn't realize this until late in my songwriting career. I spent most of my time writing long, repetitive songs, and I have to admit that they lose their appeal after a while. A shorter song is the better way to go. Keep it short, as non-repetitive as possible, and as interesting as possible. It'll work brilliantly. I believe the same concept works for game replay value.

That said, I'd really like to see more people coming up with ideas for open-ended games.

Here's an idea: A truly open-ended nonlinear game along the lines of Might & Magic VI. Go anywhere, visit places in any order you choose, complete quests in any order you choose, and develop your characters any way you choose.

It is Silliness that makes or breaks a game for me.

If it takes itself too seriously, I can't take it seriously.

Well written and entertaining garbage can be Far More Enjoyable than too serious a time. No matter how wel done!

Well said.

[Hikari no Kaze]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

I wouldn't have ordinary items just laying around that you can find and then turn in for uber-powerful weapons or stat boosts, though.

Isn't that the point? (Though maybe not Uber-Weapons....)

I voted "None", too. Here's why...

1. Items that could be turned in for special weapons/stat boosts. That's your best idea here. It works. Although it seems like a built-in cheat to me (special thing that gives you an edge over the opposition). I think the player should have to find these things, spend some time searching for them, or solve puzzles to get them. I did some stuff along these lines in "Raiders Of Lekunder". Unique bonus accessories that can give you a nasty edge, and you gotta solve a puzzle (of sorts) to get your paws on them. Does it work? I dunno. It works for me.

It doesn't really seem like a cheat to me, and...

If the "stinkin' level-up process" is so boring, why do we put up with it in the first place?

What if it were the only way to increase your stats?

EXAMPLE:

The Apple Tree in the nearby dungeon (Scripted encounter?) dropped an Apple Seed! Oh boy! Give it to Johnny in the village, and he'll give you an Apple Branch that will increase your defense by 1 when (if) you eat it!!!

(Or perhaps choices?)

Apple Tree defeated! What will you take from it?

• A Seed
• Some Sap
• A Leaf
• An Apple Core

Johnny will give you different stat boosts depending on what you choose to give to him! Nobody tells you what, however... until you trade it in!

2. A slew of useless items. No! Definitely not. They're gonna take up space in the inventory and annoy me. Here are some counter ideas...

Have an event like a barrel or a box, with a text message that says the party found some useless junk of some sort. An old copy of "Barbarian Warlords Monthly", or some old rusty mining tools, or a cobra's nest with some cobra eggs, whatever. Place all kinds of these events around, in dungeons and places you can go. It gets your point across that we're finding useless junk without cramming the inventory full of it. Our heroes should be able to recognize junk from something that's useful.

If you'd really like to have useless items that the party is lugging around, you could follow in my footsteps. Have valuable treasures that our heroes can find (treasure items). Like, say, a Jewel Encrusted Egg, Gold Candelabra, Silver Chalice, Valuable Painting... Anyone play the classic Zork text adventures? Then have a guy in town who's interested in buying these things. That'll also make your gold collecting more interesting than just looting it off of monsters. There'll be something else to be on the lookout for that you can sell for gold.

I whole-heartedly agree! Perhaps the only way to get gold (or perhaps "gift cards" for the "Ye Olden-Tymes Mystery Shoppe?") is to trade these in... and then buy "Mystery Packages" from the mystery shoppe that can contain anything from more stat boosts to powerful items to Apple Cores. (Hello, Johnny!)

4. A boss who can be challenged any time. You know, a lot of this sounds like it was inspired by Chrono Trigger. I didn't understand the appeal then, and I don't understand it now. It wasn't that great of a game. I don't understand the appeal of multiple endings and good/evil paths. In most cases, I'm not going through all those random encounters and/or other rigmarole just to see a different ending or find out what happens if I choose the "evil" option. It's all a replay value gimmick that doesn't work for me. A game's quality and fun factor will decide for me if I play it again.

Very true, although I like multiple endings... Not multiple endings like "SUPER SECRET ENDING THAT REQUIRES THREE PLAYTHROUGHS TO SEEEEEEE!!!" but "Your reactions to certain situations influence other characters' likings of you! Customize your relationships and let your favorite character's ending be the official ending for YOU!"

One of the rules for songwriting is to keep it short and sweet. If there's a 3-minute song that blows me away, I'll listen to it over and over. If there's a 6-minute song that blows me away, chances are it's a bit too repetitive and thus loses its appeal after a while. Unfortunately, I didn't realize this until late in my songwriting career. I spent most of my time writing long, repetitive songs, and I have to admit that they lose their appeal after a while. A shorter song is the better way to go. Keep it short, as non-repetitive as possible, and as interesting as possible. It'll work brilliantly. I believe the same concept works for game replay value.

What?

*checks forum*

This is for 3, right?

[1ce]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

Legend of Mana is the Best Game of All Time.

....I love you.

[Crythania]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

What if it were the only way to increase your stats?

EXAMPLE:

The Apple Tree in the nearby dungeon (Scripted encounter?) dropped an Apple Seed! Oh boy! Give it to Johnny in the village, and he'll give you an Apple Branch that will increase your defense by 1 when (if) you eat it!!!

(Or perhaps choices?)

Apple Tree defeated! What will you take from it?

• A Seed
• Some Sap
• A Leaf
• An Apple Core

Johnny will give you different stat boosts depending on what you choose to give to him! Nobody tells you what, however... until you trade it in!

I thought we were talking about fighting endless battles with monsters, be it in random encounters or otherwise, to get stronger so we can face off with the bosses who were designed to be too tough if we rush through the game, thus necessitating the aforementioned endless boredom of battling to gain levels and such. If that's such a bore, why do we put up with it in the first place?

Very true, although I like multiple endings... Not multiple endings like "SUPER SECRET ENDING THAT REQUIRES THREE PLAYTHROUGHS TO SEEEEEEE!!!" but "Your reactions to certain situations influence other characters' likings of you! Customize your relationships and let your favorite character's ending be the official ending for YOU!"

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Good reason to like the "multi-path" thing.

What?

*checks forum*

This is for 3, right?

I was drawing an analogy to songwriting. There's a reason why songs played on the radio are usually in the range of three minutes. Keep it short and sweet, keep the redundancy to a minimum, and the audience will keep coming back for more. Make it long and repetitive, and the audience will lose interest much quicker. This is an analogy to game replay value. Instead of using gimmicks to get replay value, make it a quality, entertaining product, and the replay value will happen automatically. At least, that holds true for me.

I mean, there are games that I've played through numerous times, and I can keep coming back to play them again because they're so good (for me). Many of my favorites don't have any replay gimmicks. Some are very linear, even. Doesn't matter because it retains its value for me. If the game is full of greatness, it doesn't need any help in the replay value department.

What I'm trying to say here is: Make a short, awesome game instead of a lengthy bore-fest where most of the player's time is spent fighting endless battles with monsters to do that "stinkin' level-up process".

[tjoris9]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

Above all else context is everything. Don't just throw stuff in unless it matches the feel of your game.

There are several games where the final boss is always only moments away for the players to test their skills against (Chrono Trigger comes to mind)

Only in the plus game. You still have to play your way through the storyline once to get that opportunity.

Regarding plus games, if you want to include one, make sure it's actually worth doing the plus game. In CT the plus game was how you got access to the majority of the varied endings by defeating the final boss at diferent points in the game. In Resident Evil 2 the plus game was diferent enough from the first play through that it felt like a diferent game. In Omegablade Saga (My RPGM1 game), the plus game was only if you failed to collect all the items required for the secret ending, so you could just find the items you missed and see the second ending.

As for finding items. I would say make them treasure items and reward the player for finding them all. Actual items that do nothing and take up inventory space, even if you have a storage system, will only anger the player when they find out how useless the items are. Even if the purpose of the item is to be sold for money, there is no need to force the player to use one of his item slots for it.

Regarding stat increases and leveling. It really depends on how linear your game is. If it's very linear, you can just make the monsters in each area stronger. If it's less linear you may want to control the character building a bit more.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

Why is everybody complaining about inventory space. Just make these optional items Key Items and things'll be fine.

[Crythania]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

Why is everybody complaining about inventory space. Just make these optional items Key Items and things'll be fine.

Pay attention, Dray!

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In addition, having actual items (not treasures) that may/may not have a purpose would also bring a bit of strategy into the game, as players would need to delagte item slots for not only equipment/healing/boosting items, but also the add-ons that I could make a "custom shop" for. Debating on which might be a better item to hang onto drags more experimentation into the game and may or may not make for a better playing experience.

[MagusMartovich]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

(double click, sorry)

[MagusMartovich]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

HOLY COW!!!

I hate starting threads on Thursday because I have no way of geting on line until Monday and by then people do one of the following things:

1) Ignore my thread totally

2) Post a ton of things that I'd like to reply to, but then other posts render them irrelevant.

3) Post a bunch of questions/comments that don't get answered and force me to really remember.

THAT being said, this falls into #3...

Okay, the point of making the game "loop" from the end to the begingin is that the "Magical Mystery Shop" is only going to be able to be visited ONCE per play through, thus allowing me to set some kind of worth to the "Not-usefull-for-any-other-reason" items. Things you find right after will prolly have the highest worth, but I'll hide things also. NO MONSTERS WILL BE DROPPING ITEMS! (I hate that "fight about 255 times and you'll get an X... maybe..." garbage too!)

THE point of having the items not be treasure items is because then you could play through a bunch of times and have maxed characters with uber equipmentall around and that would be boring. The added endings, however, (which were more inspired by Ogre Battle, than Chrono Trigger) would not be dependant on which items you found, only which people you helped/ignored/killed along the way: help=+2, ignore=+/-1 kill=-3 and then you're good/evil ending would depend on your "score" but all in all, you'd still need to defeat the boss and whatnot. Also, your "Score" would reset from game to game, so if you killed everyone in the first run through, you wouldn't be prohibited from geting the "good" ending the second time.

NONE of my games take themselves very seriously, and this game is meant to be TOTALLY non-linear and would players would prolly only gain levels as rewards for helping/killing NPCs that seek the players aid. THere would be some random battles, but only for the extra gold purposes, no random items drops at all, and overall the shops would be undercharging. Everything would mostly be built around the Magical Mystery Shop and the items/boosts/weapons found therein, as although I love sidequests, having a game built entirely around sidequests (or one BIG sidequest) is something that I'm going to try out, and I think I'm going to use this idea as my springboard to test out those waters.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

Pay attention, Dray!

I was paying attention, to how people were complaining that having useless items would take up inventory space. That wouldn't be a problem if they were Treasure Items. (That's what I meant by key items.) Last I checked, there isn't a limit to the amount of Treasure Items you can hold. I know because my first garbage contest game had 65 of them.

I did see that Magus was wanting to maybe have useless items, but I did miss how that was Magus's intentions to have these useless items fill up the inventory.

[Crythania]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

S'cool, Dray.

I consider you a good friend. I was jes' doin' a bit of friendly teasin' there.

We cool.

[MagusMartovich]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

I did see that Magus was wanting to maybe have useless items, but I did miss how that was Magus's intentions to have these useless items fill up the inventory.

Maybe I used "useless" out of context... The items (if that is their real name) will be dropable/sellable/useable as long as your in the right spot. Actually, this all hinges on weather or not I can use an item like a switch or variable, as if I can't then this idea is circling the drain as we speak...

[tjoris9]

Re: Wrong, or too right?

Regular items that take up item slots can't be used as a means of activating events, though you can modify a variable, though you couldn't let the player sell or drop the item outside of a specific event, otherwise the variable will still tell the system that the player has the item.

With treasure items you can control the player's handling of the items a bit better and you can set treasure items as an event condition.

I'm not sure exactly why you're worried the players will become too strong if they're allowed access to all of their inventory slots. If the players are willing to go through the effort to become that powerful they should be given the opportunity, it just shouldn't be something easy to accomplish.