I think that if you know the way I think...

[Garr123]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

I'm just confused as to why a right wing christian extremist would be quoting Karl Marx. Much less that specific quote.

Also, I think you're underestimating the impact the 60's counter culture had.

Uhh.. what else.

Oh yeah, anti-abortion people need to shut the **** up about non-sentient fetuses and turn their attention to things like the genocide in Zimbabwe which has reached epic proportions, you know, things that are destroying human lives, the thing which they cry so vehemently about.

"After Rwanda, the UN vowed “never again” but Mugabe — and, to a considerable extent, Mbeki — have already been responsible for far more deaths than Rwanda suffered and the number is fast heading into realms previously explored only by Stalin, Mao and Adolf Eichmann."

Yeah, sounds like something people who cherish life should give a **** about.

Aside from the poetry and prophecies, if the Bible's literal meaning isn't what it means, then what does it truly mean?

Have you never heard the words allegory or metaphor? Maybe parable?

[Alex]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

I've always thought it would be funny if Mary really had a virgin birth, but Joseph was still the father, as the result of some handjob/blowjob accident.

It happens.



Can you get pregnant without having sexual intercourse?

No you can't , However there is a remote chance of getting pregnant if the penis or sperm comes in contact with the mouth of your vagina when you are fertile, that is, in the presence of your wet, slippery mucus. To be on the safe side, whenever you are fertile keep the penis well away from your vagina.

[JPS]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

Wonder if thats appropriate for the Free Forum?

anyways, as everyone is basically telling me, you either dont understand exactly what you believe in or you portrayed your meaning differently then what you wanted

[Jamos]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

All in all I don't think it matters in the end. You are right in a sense, Smurtle, in that people focus too much on the literal implications of the Bible and not in what it truely means.

I don't exactly think that is what Smurtle is aiming at. Smurtle is more of a "everyone and everything that even has the slightest thing to do with religion is stupid." Or at least that is the conclusion I have come up with from reading a majority of his posts in religion topics. Feel free to correct me if I labeled you wrong, Smurtle. I like to have my facts straight.

Oh and related news: Smurtle is also not to be taken literally lol

[Ivan Rosenguard]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

Instead of a reaction, I just have some questions to pose to you:

Why do you believe that Jehovah is the one true god and that Yeshua died for (y)our sins?

Since when did faith need to be backed by a reason. It is "FAITH", it means that I need no reason or evidence to support what I believe. It makes no sense to anyone who does not believe, hell it makes no sense to me and I'm the one believing.

If that wasn't exactly the answer you were looking for then perhaps this will suffice: I was raised to believe that, maybe? Who knows. I struggled alot with believing in God or any god. I went from agnostic, to athiest, to post-modernist, to back to being agnostic, to Christian again in the span of only six months. I may not remain believing the way I do now. I constantly struggle with my need--yes, I do believe there is a need--to believe in something, and my questioning nature. I do not pretend to know the answers, you misunderstand me (which may be my own fault).

Do you believe that there could be any other purpose for religion other than to "pacify the weak and pain-ridden"?

Again, that is the whole point of my "hippie allegory". Belief systems eventually become cults, religions, ect. and then other people then learn how to use these groups' beliefs to their advantage. The Catholic Church dominated the affairs of much of the world for centuries through the use of superstition. The irony is that many of the people using religion as leverage also believe in what they are exploiting (Take most Neo-Conservatives, for instance.)

No, I don't think that the only purpose for religion is to pacify the weak an pain-ridden. All religion begins with good intentions. But the above statement points out the fact that that is what it is eventually used for: to silence the meek, and to give those already in power more of it.

Don't you think saying religious belief systems are ultimately a fad is a bit misguided considering the life-span of some of today's major world religions (Hinduism and Baha'i, for example) and the major historical impact specific religions have had for humanity in general?

Do you not know the nature of fads? They move in a circle, never dying out; never really disappearing. (Except for Disco. Disco is dead.) One fad simply takes dominance of the rest. One day I do believe that Christianity will be replaced as the dominant religion of the world.

And fads, like religions, do indeed have major impacts on the course of history. Do you honestly think that the misguided "War on Drugs" expidenture would be going on now with such ferocity if narcotics hadn't been so popular in the 60's and to a lesser extent the 70's and 80's? Is that not a major even sucking up billions of dollars that could be used elsewhere? Do you not think that it will effect the nation, possibly the world, in the years ahead?

And how do you define the term "post-modern" in the context you've used it?

Though the term "post-modern" denotes many things that have to do with contemporary beliefs, ect., what I mean here is the belief that all people's beliefs are right and ther is no universal truth. Rather misguided in my opinion.

How do you know for sure there is only one truth? Why are other people still searching for answers when you have already discovered this single universal truth?

What is the one truth?

You insinuate that just because I believe there is only one truth, that I must know what that truth is. I've already stated that I myself am still searching. I wish I had the answers.

It is pure logic that compels me to believe in one universal truth. There is no "other way" to interpret the value of Pi, is there? It is finite. Now, you can argue that religion is abstract, and thus, open for subjection. BUT if you truly belive in that religion, than it is more than abstract, it is TRUTH!

Finally:

In your analogy of the 1960s counterculture movement in the U.S. to religion, if the hippies are analogous to religion.. who are the local fire departments and what are their hoses?

Well, that was also intended to be a joke, but now that you mention it, they could represent the oppression of another force of belief systems, or it could literaly mean someone may come at you with a (figurative) fire hose for what you believe in. Just as I am being attacked for my statements. It is the act of one group exorcizing force on another group that changes the course of history, not what belief the group itself holds.

[Edit:

I don't exactly think that is what Smurtle is aiming at. Smurtle is more of a "everyone and everything that even has the slightest thing to do with religion is stupid." Or at least that is the conclusion I have come up with from reading a majority of his posts in religion topics. Feel free to correct me if I labeled you wrong, Smurtle. I like to have my facts straight.

Oh and related news: Smurtle is also not to be taken literally lol

I know that's not what Smurtle meant, that's why I said "In a sense", lol!]

[Alex]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

I think organized religion is bull****, and (i think) the author of this thread agrees.

I love this country's freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, and I don't want anybody's religious viewpoints to be basis for any laws, or actions that affect me and everyone else. Even so, we've got assholes demanding creationism be taught in science classrooms, and groups of people being denied right because they are 'an abomination in the eyes of god'.

Many wars were fought, and many lives were wasted in the name of religion, and it's done more harm than good in the long run.


Not everyone and everything that even has the slightest thing to do with religion is stupid. It's just that most religions discourage free thought and promote stupidity. And fear. And hatred. And on and on.

[Jamos]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

Okay, I think I get you now. I actually agree with alot of what you just said.

OMG! Me christian, agree!

[Ivan Rosenguard]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

I didnt read your response because I'm sure you lashed out at me, but I wanted to clarify that I didnt label you as one, just said anyone who aims for that purpose could be labeled as one, I dont know if that was your intention or not, just saying.


p.s. - like the geico caveman theme, I had the geico gecko theme a while back for a while

You should read my responses before you post, but I guess I can't force you to. Just know that I never lashed out at you if that's what you are afraid of. I may say, do, and be alot of things, but show me one time in this entire topic that I have lashed out at anyone! Im waiting...

Also, I think you're underestimating the impact the 60's counter culture had.

I think your putting words in my mouth, which is common in debates and it comes from human nature that dictates that we tend to come to conclusions without all of the evidence, therefore I do not blame you.

But all the more, you underestimate my resepect for the impact of the 60's counterculture on the world. Indeed I have great respect for what the counterculturist movement had meant for many. I find myself struggling to accept the current culture myself. In fact, I don't except it. I HATE all of the fads, ideas, concepts, ect. of the contemporary world--I even hate the fad of fad hating!

[Garr123]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

I think your putting words in my mouth, which is common in debates and it comes from human nature that dictates that we tend to come to conclusions without all of the evidence, therefore I do not blame you.

But all the more, you underestimate my resepect for the impact of the 60's counterculture on the world. Indeed I have great respect for what the counterculturist movement had meant for many. I find myself struggling to accept the current culture myself. In fact, I don't except it. I HATE all of the fads, ideas, concepts, ect. of the contemporary world--I even hate the fad of fad hating!

It quickly became a group of shaggy wierdos and potheads who weren't good for anything but letting the local fire departments get some target practice in with the fire hoses during the Vietnam War.

Uh-huh. Sorry my human nature dictates blah blah what the **** are you talking about? How am I putting words in your mouth by stating what I think about what you said?

Why do you hate all contemporary everything? You sound like you're going through some kind of adolescent angst filled rebellion fart fest. Maybe we should all jump in our time machines and wallow in poop, because we're living in 16th century London.

[Magik]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

First of all, I think you may have put a voice to my written text that was never intended. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs; however, your first post was very unclear (which should be indicative by all of the subsequent re-explaining you've done in the rest of the topic.) Thanks for taking the time to address my curiosities.

In my first question, I was attempting to ascertain where you may be in your life right now, and how this may affect your beliefs. I wasn't asking for you to defend your faith. I agree with you that faith doesn't have to be backed by reason--hence the term blind faith. Blind faith may sound derogatory, but it doesn't have to be. There is something to be said, I believe, for people who can find contentment in their values without feeling the need to search for an origin point. So long as these people don't harm or impede others, there's nothing wrong with their blind faith, in my mind. I will admit, as in the case of my parents, that I tend to feel some pity for these people who are never interested or bothered to explore the many, many other perspectives you'll find in this world. In a similar vein, my parents pity me for "meandering" my life away. There is no dichotomous right or wrong here, just a difference of perspective. So please, don't feel attacked.

Now to respond to the rest of the questions:

You focus a lot on the negative of religion. You mention that religions ultimately "silence the meek" and give power to the powerful. You infer that contemporary religion is a political tool. Can you not also acknowledge that religion has a much larger impact?

Also, why fault the religion (or belief system) for how humans manipulate it? You place blame on a concept, but it is the so-called followers of a religion that give it a reputation and shape all facets of its utilization.

So far (as of me writing this) you focus solely on Christianity when you speak of "religion". Perhaps you'd be surprised to know that Christianity is only followed by approx. one-third of the world's population. There's another two-thirds of the world out there.

Is it the popularity of narcotics in the '60s that drives the War on Drugs today? I was thinking it's how popular American culture reacts to drugs today. There are drugs all over the world.. yet only the US is spending (wasting) huge sums of money to officially "war" against them. Hmmmmmmmm....

You insinuate that just because I believe there is only one truth, that I must know what that truth is. I've already stated that I myself am still searching. I wish I had the answers.

It is pure logic that compels me to believe in one universal truth. There is no "other way" to interpret the value of Pi, is there? It is finite. Now, you can argue that religion is abstract, and thus, open for subjection. BUT if you truly belive in that religion, than it is more than abstract, it is TRUTH!

You believe there is one truth; that's all well and good. Why does everyone have to agree with you? That was the point of my earlier questions.

And if you don't believe that everyone has to agree with you, why are shoving your beliefs on people so vehemently?:

As for another thing, I just don't like the whole "post-modernist" turn people have taken. There is ONE truth, get over it!

You seem very intolerant. Must be the Christian upbringing...

Oh wait, that was a horrible generalization, eh?

... Yeah. Exactly.

If you can't question your beliefs, how can you claim to be an authority on them?

[Ivan Rosenguard]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

First of all, I think you may have put a voice to my written text that was never intended. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs; however, your first post was very unclear (which should be indicative by all of the subsequent re-explaining you've done in the rest of the topic.) Thanks for taking the time to address my curiosities.

In my first question, I was attempting to ascertain where you may be in your life right now, and how this may affect your beliefs. I wasn't asking for you to defend your faith. I agree with you that faith doesn't have to be backed by reason--hence the term blind faith. Blind faith may sound derogatory, but it doesn't have to be. There is something to be said, I believe, for people who can find contentment in their values without feeling the need to search for an origin point. So long as these people don't harm or impede others, there's nothing wrong with their blind faith, in my mind. I will admit, as in the case of my parents, that I tend to feel some pity for these people who are never interested or bothered to explore the many, many other perspectives you'll find in this world. In a similar vein, my parents pity me for "meandering" my life away. There is no dichotomous right or wrong here, just a difference of perspective. So please, don't feel attacked.

Now to respond to the rest of the questions:

You focus a lot on the negative of religion. You mention that religions ultimately "silence the meek" and give power to the powerful. You infer that contemporary religion is a political tool. Can you not also acknowledge that religion has a much larger impact?

Also, why fault the religion (or belief system) for how humans manipulate it? You place blame on a concept, but it is the so-called followers of a religion that give it a reputation and shape all facets of its utilization.

So far (as of me writing this) you focus solely on Christianity when you speak of "religion". Perhaps you'd be surprised to know that Christianity is only followed by approx. one-third of the world's population. There's another two-thirds of the world out there.

Is it the popularity of narcotics in the '60s that drives the War on Drugs today? I was thinking it's how popular American culture reacts to drugs today. There are drugs all over the world.. yet only the US is spending (wasting) huge sums of money to officially "war" against them. Hmmmmmmmm....



You believe there is one truth; that's all well and good. Why does everyone have to agree with you? That was the point of my earlier questions.

And if you don't believe that everyone has to agree with you, why are shoving your beliefs on people so vehemently?:



You seem very intolerant. Must be the Christian upbringing...

Oh wait, that was a horrible generalization, eh?

... Yeah. Exactly.

If you can't question your beliefs, how can you claim to be an authority on them?

Did I ever claim I was an authority on them? And don't I question my beliefs? Every ****ing day! My game is partly about myself questioning my beliefs! And "intolerant"? Bah and pah! How am I, by stating my beliefs, shoving them on people? Did I say everyone has to agree with me?

Once again I must state that if I believe that there is only one truth, than as far as I'm concerned there is only one truth. Yes, I realize that much of what I have said is a paradox, and that has caused confusion amongst you as to what you get out of reading my words. But that is the nature of human thinking! Human beings constantly struggle with conflicting concepts, sometimes believing in to things at once that cannot logically coexist. It is the nature of abstract thought that only withing a single person forms a solid coherent thought. There's probably little hope for you or anyone to ever understand what I am saying, but: I DO value the opinions and beliefs of others, and then I DON'T. It makes no sense to you, most likely. But it does to me.

I am actually known as one of the most tolerant people in many of my circles. Hell, I caught the brunt of much of people's intolerance myself. I live in a highly "white supremisist" area, and I'm quite ethnically ambiguous. Nobody can really tell what I am, but that doesn't stop them from saying whatever evil little thought pops into their heads! I've been called nearly every racial slur in the book and I am not even any of them. I am, for the most part, cocasian. I just have a little cherokee blood on both sides and that has manifested in my outward appearance. I'm the only one in my immediate family who has as dark of skin as I have. (And yes, I am my father's son, I've already heard that one. Don't bother.) They have a name for that, can anyone tell me what it is when a number of traits that haven't existed in the family for a long while resurface and the child looks nothing like any of his immediate family? I remember reading "A Wrinkle in Time" once and the word was there but I don't remember what it was.

But, I digress, you may never understand me. I'm not the best at explaing things. I'm not bragging that I'm some kind of complex package that nobody's ever going to figure out, I believe all people are complex. Even if you think they are simple, you have no idea.
Perhaps trying to start a debate was a bad idea. This was more of a disclaimer sort of thing anyway. I'm just warning people that the views expressed in my game (due out now probably by the end of the summer, the story is already written, btw) by many of the characters are not my own and many are much worse than anything you've seen here. The main character is borderlining on Social Darwainist. And yet I am making him a loveable character none the less. He is both more open minded and more close minded than I am at the same time. And again, you may never fully understand.

[archerarmored]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

PARTY!

[Ivan Rosenguard]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

Well, this is definitely an interesting thread to follow, but I'm not exactly sure where you stand Ivan Rosenguard. Sometimes it's hard to decipher which of your comments are meant as jokes and which ones are meant as real comments.



If whether or not Jesus (Yeshua) was born of a virgin is inconsequential, then his death (that of a sinless God/man) must be too if you follow that line of thinking. I don't think that's what you mean. Or is it?

What is the point you are referring to (that people are missing entirely)?



Aside from the poetry and prophecies, if the Bible's literal meaning isn't what it means, then what does it truly mean?

I shall now tell, you, in a single word, what the entire Bible--every propehcy, every allegory, every bit of peotry included--means:

LOVE

Every story in the bible is in itself, without considering its historical validity, is meant to teach a lesson. They are fables that may or may not have happened. And you can argue that all of the bible is fiction, but you can't argue the message. That is solid as rock. People, have just chosen to ignore it.

Every story in the bible leading up to the birth of Christ is merely the introduction to a story about love. Jesus taught tolerence, goodwill, and above all else: LOVE. Saul taught that one should cherish and reflect on above all things that which is beautiful, that which is pure, and that which is great in the lord. And what else in bible is so vehemently expressed as great in the Lord than Love? That he would die for our sins, and take them all upon himself? To suffer when he could have just as easily have gotten off of that cross and lived a real life--experienced the love another for himself. But instead, he would choose to die. To express his love for all of mankind. People like to harp on how great it is that God would give up his only son for our sins, but I choose to focus more on the fact that his only son gave himself up for our sins. He could have made it all stop. The bible said so. But he didn't. You can say it isn't true, you can trash the validity of the story, but you cannot tarnish the message: Love.

And even if one day the story is proven false, and my faith is skewn assunder, the message will forever remain true: Love. It does not matter if the story is for real.

I'm a strong believer in those "silly love songs" some people try to fill the world with. And despite my cynical nature love is what I truely believe in. I'm a foolish romanticist at heart. I wear my heart on my sleeve day in and day out. And even if I don't like your opinions, I love you and your spirit. It sounds cheesy but I do. All of you. Do I need any other proof than the fact that the young woman I long for with all my heart is Right Wing Republican? And me, a left wing liberal! Can you believe it?

"All you need is love."

Good god am I the corniest person you've ever met or what?

And in the end, love may very well be that ultimate truth.

[Jamos]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

Good god am I the corniest person you've ever met or what?

Well, you are a rather complicated person, at least. When I think you are going a certain way, you then go another. Not that it confuses me or anything, it just makes things more interesting.

[Alex]

Re: I think that if you know the way I think...

I don't know if you notice this or not, Ivan, but you're giving off major pompous-asshole vibes.

Much of what you say has this holier-than-thou undertone, and nobody here likes being talked down to.

Just letting you know. I can't imagine having a good conversation with you, much less a 'debate'.