When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

[The Toecutter]

http://www.payvand.com/news/10/feb/1099.html

Iran on Wednesday unveiled the electric model of the Samand car. The electric model of the Samand can run at a speed of 140 kph and can be recharged within 15 minutes.

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=118370

With the maximum velocity of 140 kilometers per hour, the electric Samand can travel 200-km before it needs recharging, Fars news agency reported on Wednesday.

http://ikcopress.ikco.com/EN/News.aspx?docID=10998

“The engine outputs 110hp”, he said and added, “it requires six to eight hours to be recharged by home electricity while it shrinks to only six to 15 minutes in special charging stations.”

It seems that the best the bailed-out GM can put forth is a high-maintenance, overpriced PHEV that will be routinely deep discharged(thus heavily stressing the battery and reducing usable life), and maintain reliance of petroleum whenever exceeding its short range...

Ford has a much better EV than GM, being their Focus conversion, but it will not be produced in volume comparable to gasoline cars and will consequently be extremely expensive(would you pay $70,000 for a Ford Focus that had less range than the Iranian electric car mentioned above, intentionally less performance than the gasoline Focus, and no quick charge capability, especially when a Nissan Leaf has similar performance and is less than half the cost?).

***edit***

Here is the first electric car ever built by college students in Iran:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6uY7...eature=related

For $11,000 budget, they hand-built a car that does ~50 miles range at 50 mph. Considering it is a completely custom car built to pass the safety standards they have, that is not that bad, although plenty of hobbyists have done better.

[Gros Minou]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

http://www.zenncars.com/

Zenn is a Canadian company . They make electric cars . Recently it's legal to rum with it in Quebec ( exept freeway )

[Wavelength]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

A few random, incoherent thoughts:

How much does this cost? If Richard Branson wanted to do it for less and make it available to the mass market, could he?

I'd be skeptical of anything coming from PressTV, aka Iran's State-Controlled Propaganda Machine. (North Korea announced the other day that they now have a working fusion power plant. I guess that'll teach South Korea, that corruption-riddled, poverty-filled fief of the US, their lesson, right guys? )

They're making Ford Fusion hybrids that get around 40mph for under $30k and are probably a pretty sweet ride. I wonder how much of our fuel consumption it would save if everyone who rode a jeep or SUV rode one of those instead?

[Leish]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Would that car even be safe for American roads? There's a pretty cheap Indian car that runs off of compressed air, but it's way to flimsy to share the road with our abundance of SUVs, trunks, and Honda Civics. A car that doesn't need much to propel itself that fast, I distrust its safety features for our country. Without reading the sources, which may make me look like an ass with the following assumption, it's probably built with light-weight, flimsy material. Sure, for what it is, the car seems impressively efficient, but I don't think it's fair to compare it with our cars when safety is more of a factor here.

[IamPinhead]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

American industry cannot win when Toecutter is fighting it.

[orius]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

I'd be skeptical of anything coming from PressTV, aka Iran's State-Controlled Propaganda Machine.

Yeah, this is Iran we're talking about. Even if they have made decent strides here, I still don't trust the regime.

[The Toecutter]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

A few random, incoherent thoughts:

How much does this cost?

I've been trying to find more information, but I don't know how to read Arabic.

If Richard Branson wanted to do it for less and make it available to the mass market, could he?

Maybe. He definately has the money required to get an electric car mass produced.

I'd be skeptical of anything coming from PressTV, aka Iran's State-Controlled Propaganda Machine. (North Korea announced the other day that they now have a working fusion power plant. I guess that'll teach South Korea, that corruption-riddled, poverty-filled fief of the US, their lesson, right guys? )

Skepticism is healthy with regard to their media; the same can be said for the corporate media in the US as well(WMDs in Iraq, anyone?). What lends the article credibility is that there is more articles on this vehicle from 3rd party sources, including evworld.com.

They're making Ford Fusion hybrids that get around 40mph for under $30k and are probably a pretty sweet ride.

Quite unimpressive, given that a Prius costs $5,000 less. If Ford really wanted to get some efficient cars on the road, they could produce the following for the U.S.:

1999 Ford P2000 LSR, 63 mpg, diesel-electric hybrid(1.2L 4 cyl diesel 74 hp)

2000 Ford Prodigy, 78 mpg, 0-60 mph 11 seconds, 0.199 Cd, 2387 lbs curb weight, diesel-electric hybrid(1.2L 4 cyl diesel 74 hp w 35 kW electric drive)

2009 Ford Fiesta Econetic, 64 mpg, 0-60 mph 12.3 seconds, 0.33 Cd, 2420 lbs, diesel(1.6L 4 cyl 90 hp)


In fact, the Ford Prodigy has about 1/3 less drag than the Fusion, and maintains very similar styling cues, cargo space, and passenger volume. The difference in fuel economy is large, however. Even without the advantage of being a diesel-electric hybrid, the low drag and low weight would allow it to get comparable fuel economy to the Fusion Hybrid if it had a 200+ horsepower gasoline V6 instead. Both the P2000 LSR(a converted Ford Contour) and the Prodigy are midsized cars, like the Fusion.

The Fiesta Econetic is a car Ford sells in Europe, but refuses to sell in the U.S., even though the market for it is present.

I wonder how much of our fuel consumption it would save if everyone who rode a jeep or SUV rode one of those instead?

We'd probably lose about 10% of America's oil consumption; I'm making an assumption on the current number of large trucks and SUVs in America's auto fleet, mind you.

Better yet, imagine if the Big 3 had to meet a 50 mpg minimum requirement to offer a model in the U.S. GM has repeatedly demonstrated no-compromises 80+ mpg cars in the past, some that had been confirmed to be affordable if mass produced, and even the ones that couldn't be due to expensive materials could still have elements carry over to cars with conventional materials(such as low drag designs).

Unfortunately, the cars that are sold in the U.S. are moreso designed by accountants than engineers.

American industry cannot win when Toecutter is fighting it.

Heh. The American auto industry could do lots of things if they tried. It is embarassing that hobbyists using their own money are the ones setting world records with regard to electric vehicle range and performance(see www.plasmaboyracing.com for an example relating to performance). During the 1990s, high school students in the U.S. were converting cars that ended up having better range than the concept cars the Big 3 had built at the time. Given that such large corporations have billions of dollars at their disposal, as opposed to someone in their garage with $10-20k+, it is quite clear that the big 3 aren't even trying.

The fact that Iran's nationalized auto industry has built a midsized electric car with better range than anything the Big 3 are currently rolling out at auto shows is also telling(nationalized industries tend to produce sub-par products compared to private industry for each unit of effort or money used).

Would that car even be safe for American roads?

Maybe. Many cars that can't pas America's standards turn out to be far safer than the cars sold in the U.S. due to the methodology of the testing in the U.S. Many lightweight cars in Europe are built for the occupants to survive collisions at Autobahn speeds, something almost no American car could do, yet they don't pass America's crash standards, which IMO are designed to exclude small volume manufacturers more than to keep the public safe...

There's a pretty cheap Indian car that runs off of compressed air,

Compressed air grants marginal performance and range far worse than most lead acid battery EVs.

but it's way to flimsy to share the road with our abundance of SUVs, trunks, and Honda Civics. A car that doesn't need much to propel itself that fast, I distrust its safety features for our country.

With regard to the air car, you are probably correct.

Without reading the sources, which may make me look like an ass with the following assumption, it's probably built with light-weight, flimsy material.

Not at all; it's a midsized car. That being said, it is not weight so much that makes a car safe, it is the crumple zones designed into it to reduce impulse in a collision. Having a roll cage to prevent the occupants from being crushed by heavy vehicles is neither expensive nor prohibitive with regard to weight. Perhaps one of the safest cars ever built is a Lotus Elise.

[Red Dragon]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

y'know, whether it's charging a battery or filling a fuel tank, you have to get the energy from someplace. Not to mention transporting those batteries across the world, and then add in new tech costs. I can't imagine these being environmentally or even economically viable.

It's not really the technology, but how to make it affordable and reasonable.

[The Toecutter]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

y'know, whether it's charging a battery or filling a fuel tank, you have to get the energy from someplace.

Yes. From an energy use perspective, what matters is well to wheels energy efficiency. An electric car getting its electricity from a coal-fired plant has a well-to-wheels energy usage per mile about half that of a gasoline car with the same weight and aerodynamic characteristics. Consequently, greenhouse gasses are also cut by about half, from a coalpower plant.

Not to mention transporting those batteries across the world, and then add in new tech costs. I can't imagine these being environmentally or even economically viable.

With regard to heavy, mass produced items, shipping costs are inconsequential and were still a very small part of expenses(< 1%) when oil reached $147/barrel.

"New Tech Costs" are mainly due to production volume being lower than established technology.

From an environmental standpoint, EVs win against gasoline because they require no 'engine' maintenance, and their motors will outlast even diesel engines. Then there's the issue of pollution produced from making the electricity, even with coal, being lower than using gasoline to run an internal combustion engine; with wind/solar, electric cars emit no emissions at all.

From an economics stand point, EVs also win, but only if their parts are produced in similar volume to gasoline cars. Many commercial EVs cost $100,000+ not because they are inherently expensive, but because they are either built by hand or close to it; a low volume gasoline car is also extremely expensive. James worden, who designed the Solectria Sunrise midsized electric car claimed $20,000 in mass production; this EV does 200 miles on a charge at highway speeds.

The operating cost of an EV is extremely low, even factoring in battery replaceemnt; this is, of course, provided that the EV is designed for long range to minimize the typical discharge cycle. A PHEV like the Chevy Volt, that will routinely see its pack deep discharged, is going to be very expensive to operate.

Hobbyists using lead acid batteries, even factoring in battery pack replacement, sometimes break even at under $1.50/gallon gasoline.

It's not really the technology, but how to make it affordable and reasonable.

Making it affordable is a matter of production volume. Getting a viable EV on the roads with range and performance comparable to a gasoline car could have been done 15 years ago; 30 years ago if one were willing to accept 'only' 100 miles range.

Nissan's Leaf, which is mass produced, is going to cost $32,780, not counting any incentives. It does not, however, enjoy the same volume that cars typically have, and many of its components were developed by Nissan and will need to recoup their R&D costs(Nissan could have saved a lot of money using 'off the shelf' components).

The biggest hurdle to electric cars has been, and still is, political in nature. Auto companies aren't fond of a vehicle that you will never need to do any engine maintenance on, which will last 500,000+ miles, and which will require extensive retooling of manufacturing equipment. Expensive maintenance and repairs related to the engine is how many of them padded extra profit margins(eg. GM making 50% of its profit in the 1990s from aftermarket services and repairs). Then there's the issue of the oil industry and various government revenue streams being compromised by this disruptive technology. Thankfully, Mitsubishi and Nissan are finally willing to do something different, for a change; the rest of the major automakers, not so much.

It appears that this is changing incrementally, however; note concepts by major manufacturers, such as the Audi ETron or Subaru G4e, and planned production cars like the Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi iMIEV.

Although, Nissan could have made the Leaf a much better car by designing it as an EV from the ground up(allowing half the aerodynamic drag, 800 lbs less weight, with no compromises, and thus improving range 50% or more and dropping 3 seconds from the 0-60 time without adding cost), instead of converting/modifying a Versa platform, but I digress...

It seems we are inching closer toward an electric car future, albeit much too slowly; the hobbyists and universities with meagre budgets are still the ones setting the world records with regard to this technology. Hopefully we will be able to partially implement it before peak oil brings us real problems, which may not be long... we got a taste of it in 2008, and then our economy started to collapse. Some companies see the threat for what it is and are acting accordingly.

[Wavelength]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Thanks for the info Terr, you've always got great stats on electric cars.

Wow, the Prius is down to $25K? Wasn't it like $45K two years ago? ...Wow. Just looked it up and you're right, they start as low as $22K (with a decent features package, no less)! That's impressive.

Also, I looked up the Ford Fusion and although the Hybrid Models are $30K, the other ones start at $20K and get 36-41 MPG which is pretty nice.

It would be nice if they really toughened the fuel economy standards. 40+mpg might be pushing it; I could see them requiring an AVERAGE of 40, but for personal cars/etc. I think the flatline minimum could safely be 30 and we'd still get rid of a lot of our oil usage.

Do we use coal or oil to power our steelmaking industry?



EDIT: Also, this piqued my curiosity:

Yes. From an energy use perspective, what matters is well to wheels energy efficiency. An electric car getting its electricity from a coal-fired plant has a well-to-wheels energy usage per mile about half that of a gasoline car with the same weight and aerodynamic characteristics. Consequently, greenhouse gasses are also cut by about half, from a coalpower plant.

I always thought a large part of the "ineffiency" of gas-powered autos was that their engines weren't nearly as efficient as that of a power plant. So, if we used an oil power plant to power an electric car, would it end up being less efficient than just using a gasoline engine to power that same car? Is the only way we can even break even to build tons of renewable-energy power sources alongside the battery-powered cars? Are there other internal-to-the-car or internal-to-the-power-station methods that might work for a reasonable price (hydrolysis, reverse torque, etc.)?

[The Toecutter]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Thanks for the info Terr, you've always got great stats on electric cars.

Wow, the Prius is down to $25K? Wasn't it like $45K two years ago?

The Prius was never $45k, unless it was purchased in a country where it was heavily taxed for being a "large car" or a "luxury car"; America does not fit that description.

It would be nice if they really toughened the fuel economy standards. 40+mpg might be pushing it; I could see them requiring an AVERAGE of 40, but for personal cars/etc. I think the flatline minimum could safely be 30 and we'd still get rid of a lot of our oil usage.

Considering that UC Davis had modified a Ford Expedition to get 35 mpg on the EPA combined cycle, and considering Opel's 94 mpg Eco Speedster that does 160 mph, and considering GM's 80 mpg Precept midsized car, even 70 mpg average shouldn't be a problem for them while still offering no compromises to consumers. Look up the Peugeot VERA+, the Volvo LCP2000, the GM Ultralite, and other 20+ year old 70+ mpg no-compromise cars major automakers have demonstrated long ago. The problem is they don't seem to want to build them.

Do we use coal or oil to power our steelmaking industry?

With regard to electricity, mostly coal. Less than 3% of America's electricity consumption comes from oil; about 50% comes from coal(stats vary depending on source).

EDIT: Also, this piqued my curiosity:

I always thought a large part of the "ineffiency" of gas-powered autos was that their engines weren't nearly as efficient as that of a power plant. So, if we used an oil power plant to power an electric car, would it end up being less efficient than just using a gasoline engine to power that same car? Is the only way we can even break even to build tons of renewable-energy power sources alongside the battery-powered cars? Are there other internal-to-the-car or internal-to-the-power-station methods that might work for a reasonable price (hydrolysis, reverse torque, etc.)?

Consider that a coal powerplant is about 35-40% efficient. Transmsision to the point where the car is plugged in is about 90-95% efficient. Charging the battery and accounting for both battery and charger losses varies from 70-90% efficient. The electric drive system(including 'transmission') is about 85-90% efficient.

Using the lower efficiency figures for each of these processes, we get 18.7% efficiency at the lowest for an electric car. This is a combination you might see with a manual transmission, DC motor conversion using lead acid batteries; a car like the Nissan Leaf or AC Propulsion EBox will be much more efficient. Using the same low figures for the coal plant and the electric transmission losses, but the upper figures for the charging and drive system, 25.5% efficiency is obtained.

Consider that 'cracking' gasoline from crude oil is about 88% efficient. Further processing, shipping, and distributing that gasoline is about 90% efficient(counting leaks). A modern internal combustion gasoline engine is roughly 20% efficient in typical use for driving(efficiency increases with heavy loads for racing condition, BUT fuel consumed goes up in those conditions). Driveline and an automatic transmission are typically around 80% efficiency.

This gives 12.7% efficiency for the gasoline car.

Even in a worst case scenario, an electric car still uses about 1/3 less energy than a comparable gasoline one. However, most studies I've read, using more realistic figures for the EV, find the EV is about twice as efficient on a well to wheels basis, and the hypothetical example I gave above also demonstrates that.

Further, given that roughly 4 kWh of electricity are used to obtain each gallon of gasoline from a barrel of oil, it is apparent just how wasteful using gasoline is! So much elecricity is used just to get a gallon of gasoline from crude oil that the amount of electricity used is enough to power a miudsized car(say, a converted Ford Taurus at 0.25 kWh/mile) 16 miles! Just the electricity used alone to obtain gasoline from crude will power an equivalent electric car 2/3 the distance that gallon of gasoline would power a gasoline internal combustion equivalent!

Given the thermal efficieny of an EV, yes, it WOULD be more efficient to generate electricity with petroleum, send it to the point where the car is charged, and drive an electric car off of that energy than it would to burn it in a gasoline vehicle! The same can also be said about electric cars with natural gas generated electricity versus a natural gas powered internal combustion car.

Also of note, Iran has had natural gas hybrids on the market for more than 5 years now. They've been selling them to nearby countries such as Pakistan and India, and Saudi Arabia is NOT pleased about it.

[orius]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Also of note, Iran has had natural gas hybrids on the market for more than 5 years now. They've been selling them to nearby countries such as Pakistan and India, and Saudi Arabia is NOT pleased about it.

Yeah, I really feel sorry for the Saudis, particularly the leaders.

[The Toecutter]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Yeah, I really feel sorry for the Saudis, particularly the leaders.

Why?

[IamPinhead]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Nuclear Fusion car is the only way to go. Electric is for hippies.

[orius]

Re: When comes to electric cars, Iran's auto industry appears to embarass Big Three

Why?

You do realize that was sarcasm, right?