Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

I'm figuring on how different weapons should be balanced between each other. I think I've got it figured out, but there's one thing I'm uncertain of, and that is the difference between a Katana and a Staff.

What I've got so far:
Staves cause around 80 damage. Katanas cause around 65 damage.

Staves are a blunt weapon, and enemies weak against blunt attacks would take 120 damage (40 points extra), yet a few other enemies might brush it off and only take 40 or even 20 damage.

Katanas are a basic weapon and would cause 65 damage all around no matter the weakness, but they can attack groups at once, so those instances where there are two or three slimes sitting next to each other (which generally would happen every few battles), it would cause 65 damage to each of them in one fell swoop (you do the math).

Between staves and katanas, which would you choose?

And more importantly, does either sound too powerful compared to the other? I'm wanting them to be comparitively equal, so that it becomes personal choice, and not the usual "this one will always be the more powerful option" deal.

EDIT: Okay, I'm glad that I decided to ask about this. After considering a couple comments, I decided to do some number crunching. And I discovered that yes, even though the club offers bonus damage against certain enemies, the disadvantage against other enemies just makes it weak again. Makes me wonder about the stats of my weapons overall. I did some retooling with weapon strengths, and I'd like you guys to take a look at this and tell me what you think.

(This is using RPG Maker 1, btw.)

• Axes: 84% Power. Single attack. Nothing special. Just consistantly hits hard.
  
• Swords: 38% Power. Can strike twice (for 76%). Weaker than the Axes overall, but if the first strike defeats an enemy, the next strike diverts to the next enemy. In essense, it will give you a head start in chucking out the next enemy's HP.
  
• Clubs: 100% Power. Single attack. Most powerful weapon against normal foes. Extra damage to armored enemies. Less damage to a few others.
  
• Katanas: 60% Power. Single attack. If multiple enemies are of the same type, it hits each of them in one fell swoop. (e.g. If the enemy party consists of a goblin and two slimes, you can attack both slimes at once.)
  
• Daggers: 36% Power. Can strike twice (for 72%). Same situation as the sword, but can be equipped by characters the sword cannot.
  
• Bow & Arrows: 65-77% Power. Single attack. Its power starts off weak, but as you find better quality arrows, it gets stronger. One character is able to use this weapon to strike enemies before the battle begins (but not for bosses).
  
• Claws: 35% Power. Single attack, but two can be equipped at the same time (for 70%).
  
• Fists: 45% Power. Single attack, but two can be equipped at the same time (for 90%). Like the club, it is a blunt weapon, and can cause extra damage on certain enemies, or less. (Think punching gloves.)

With that said, here's a possible situation that includes all weapon types. You've assembled a party of four.

• Member #1 can equip the axe, sword, or club.
• Member #2 can equip the katana, dagger, or club.
• Member #3 can equip the bow & arrow (in this scenario, at 73% Power) or club. This is the specialized character I mentioned.
• Member #4 can equip two claws, two fists, or a claw in one hand and a fist worn on the other.

Based on the information above, and assuming everyone has the same attack power and no magic (unlikely scenario, but work with it), what would you choose for all their weapons?

And do you think they're balanced against each other well enough?

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

weapons is very hard to balance, especially if your using a class system for them. when you get the weapon it should be a nice boost, when its time to trade it up for something different it should be showing its age. that being said players most often go for the destroy as many enemies at once one.

a standardized attack that does the same damage to a group is a very powerful tool. a staff that does tons of damage to a single enemy or nearly nothing is only useful in an area where blunt weapons are superior. otherwise the performance of the weapon wont be what the player is looking for and will trade it away. players dont want to reequip for every battle unless your game is designed that way, give multiple options. if they have a weapon that does lousy damage under certain conditions then have a spell that they can use instead so they can constantly crush their enemies with little pain if they need it.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Well, I'm hoping to avoid having any dungeon favor a specific weapon type.

[FlamingMage]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

I like the direction you're going so I'll throw in my two-cents.

I think it depends on the situations of your game. I have to admit I can't recall exactly what the specs of your game are, or what system it's on, but if you have multiple PC's in the party you'll want to base your decision around what the others have equipped; if my mage can handle groups already, I'll probably be looking for someone to handle single enemies.

If your character is alone, then I think the decision has to be one of shoring up a characters weaknesses. It's late so I don't think I'm stating this right, but I'll try: players will equip whichever weapon puts them in the least annoying situations, regardless of power. This is shown time and time again in gaming; players will gladly use a sub-standard armor if it prevents an annoying status ailment, or such on. So whichever of the weapons is "better" is largely irrelevant, since most players will choose the one that they can more conceivably imagine using to bail themselves out of a bad situation, or shorten a lengthy battle, or some such bothersome act of combat.

I tried to make that coherent but no guarantees. I'll clarify if need be...

Best of luck!

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Well, you didn't exactly say which of those you would choose. :P

EDIT: Changed up the attack powers. Gave more info. See first post.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

interesting way to break down the weapons.

in my game i focus on the prime classes: blunt, slash, and pierce. from there each weapon is unique to itself so you could get a sword that can cut all enemies or one that can deal huge damage to one. the weapons are balanced to when you can receive it and when id consider it outdated. im not sure if i like how each char is assigned with two or three weapon types, though i may fix that as the game goes on (ill justify it by having the chars learn to be stronger).

my chars are in designed roles (the magic caster, the middle of the road, and the powerhouse), so weapons are made weak or strong depending on the character who will use it, the weapon itself, and the time its received. i like how in rones games even staffs are powerful.

where im going with this is that no mater how you divide your weapons, its going to be very difficult to balance them. i think if your creative enough then you can balance them within their context and they will preform. the trick is to give your player enough choice so that they can choose which path they want to take - the katana or the staff.

my playing style is the more hits i do the happier ill be so i put two weapons on and i go all out with attack power. others may play more cautiously. i may need to work to get mine less complex then it already is. that has been my biggest hurtle so far.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Well, these aren't exactly exact stats, so much as how strong they are in relation to each other. A L1 Katana will be 60% the strength of a L1 Club, as would a L8 Katana to a L8 Club. Early on these differences won't really show much in damage, but as you gain strength and find stronger weapons, the differences become more apparent.

I myself am not a fan of games where every character is pretty much the same. Most games where any character can equip any weapon, I just give them all the weapon that does most damage, as most games, that's the only difference between most weapons. I wanted each of my characters to have a variety of weapons to choose from (though it basically comes down to "pointy or blunt"), but not every existing weapon.

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

I've been having a challenge with this too. I got tired of weapons only seperating themselves by how much damage they do. Particularly RPGM1's weapon data and factors.

[1ce]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

players will equip whichever weapon puts them in the least annoying situations, regardless of power. This is shown time and time again in gaming; players will gladly use a sub-standard armor if it prevents an annoying status ailment, or such on. So whichever of the weapons is "better" is largely irrelevant, since most players will choose the one that they can more conceivably imagine using to bail themselves out of a bad situation, or shorten a lengthy battle, or some such bothersome act of combat.

FlamingMage hit the nail on the head here.

In A Work in Progress, you play the game alone. And early on, you can choose between a weapon that does more damage, or a weaker weapon that hurts everyone. I always choose the weaker, attack all weapon despite doing less damage because it's less of an annoyance.

[FlamingMage]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Okay, after reading your weapon facts:

I would equip Club, Club, Club, and two Fists.

Unless the Clubs are weak against many enemies, at which point I would switch the first character to an Axe.

The way I see it, if I have four party members, and if the enemies rarely have more than four in their group, than I have no need to equip a weaker weapon for the chance of hitting multiple targets. I can simply assign each member one enemy and count on their superior power to overwhelm what I lack in versatility.

Personally, although I think that I am much more likely to get this wrong than you are, I would have assigned them these values:

Axes: 78% Power. Single attack. Nothing special. Just consistantly hits hard.
Swords: 35% Power. Strikes twice (for 70%).
Clubs: 100% Power. No extra damage to armored enemies. Less damage to around a fourth of enemies.
Katanas: 54% Power.
Daggers: 30% Power. Strikes twice (for 60%).
Bow & Arrows: 58-84% Power.
Claws: 35% Power. Single attack, but two can be equipped at the same time (for 70%).
Fists: 45% Power. Single attack, but two can be equipped at the same time (for 90%). Can cause extra damage on certain enemies, or less.

That's how I would lay it out, off the top of my head. I'm not trying to suggest that this is better, just hoping to jump-start any other ideas hiding in your brain.

PS: on the issue of making swords and daggers always hit twice; I play a lot of games. I have a firm understanding of probability. However, whenever some action of my characters does not match my expectations, I am hugely disappointed. No one complains that their character didn't get a critical hit, because the expectation is to hit normally. Thus, criticals make gamers happy. Whenever I don't dodge an enemy attack, I accept that as the norm. Thus, dodging makes gamers happy. But when I miss, I am unhappy. Even if is statistically perfectly sound, I expected to hit. I am let down...essentially by the game. Likewise, gamers may feel cheated when their sword/knife only hits once, especially if they were really counting on that double hit, and you only have to cheat someone a few times before they stop using swords. T'would be a shame for someone to see a sword single-strike the first three times that they used it (which is of course very statistically possible) and then ignore swords for the rest of the game.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Swords: 35% Power. Strikes twice (for 70%).
Daggers: 30% Power. Strikes twice (for 60%).

You know I didn't think that the way I worded this would confuse anybody. But yeah, when I said "can strike twice", I pretty much meant that they're set to always strike twice. Minus the chance of missing, which is really no different than any other weapon's chance at missing. (I think it's a 1 in 10 chance of any weapon's strike missing. But don't quote me on that.) So these two weapons will almost always strike twice. And no, I cannot change the miss ratio, just as I can't change the critical hit ratio.

Clubs: 100% Power. No extra damage to armored enemies. Less damage to around a fourth of enemies.

I rather wish I could do it like that. But RPGM1's elemental system is very rock/paper/scissors. The only way I could have a weapon not give extra damage to certain enemies is if I make it non-elemental and it not give any changed damage to any type of enemies. If I had the capability, I'd actually make the club weaker again and have it only cause extra damage to armored enemies with no bonuses (positive or negative) to any other enemies.

I'm planning on probably dropping the club's and fists' power to match the level of the swords and claws, and make the axe top dog for brute force again.

[orius]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

I guess it depends on how the elemental system works in the game, i.e. how elements are distributed among enemies and how often. RPGM's elemental system is pretty rigid, in that you can't change weapons in combat. Usually elemental weapons are good in a game where you can swap them out to match weaknesses during combat. Otherwise, you're better off just casting spells. So if the club is the strongest weapon, but it's elemental, it's going to be sub-par against certain enemies and very good against others. If those emeies are distributed rather evenly, I think I'd rather something like the sword or katana which are more reliable. Also, I tend to prefer attacks which can hit multiple targets anyway.

I've been doing something similar with my game, but I'm just using the standard fire/lightning/ice element system as an add-on, and having some elemental weapons really doesn't seem all that great given the system. I may do away with it next game. I'm already thinking of moving beyond fire/lightning/ice anyway, and I'm not interested in going blunt/slash/pierce because that's used almost as much. I want elements that work well with RPGM's wonky system. I have addressed the double and group attack weapons though. In my game, I have double attack at 50% power because they attack twice, and group weapons at 40% assuming a standard group has 2-3 enemies. Anyway, it's all mentioned over in my equipment thread.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

The ratio I'm going for is 1:2:3. That is, for every one enemy that would be weak against blunt attacks (the armored enemies), there will be two enemies strong against it (because they're weak against other things, instead), and three enemies that take the damage the weapon advertises (they have no weakness or strength).

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Yeah but what would be the benefit in using a dagger compared to a sword in that case? Unless one was a "pierce" element and the other was "slash" or something? Am I understanding it right?

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Weapon balancing. Thoughts? Advice?

Actually the only real difference between the sword and dagger is who can equip them. :P