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Old 11-05-2013, 07:38 PM   #1
BrokenH
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Gutter-delve closet cases



With 400 something downloads at RMN, Gutterdelve: Closet cases seems like a cult hit! In truth it sparked much more of a public outcry because of racy fan art and certain controversial themes. Does that make it "good"? Not really unless it is perhaps your kind of thing!

Features

1. Dense spooky story line in a modern yet supernatural setting

2. A cast of 7 diversified characters,each having rather elaborate back stories.

3. A "card finder system" to make "leveling up" less grind heavy and more hassle free. (Seriously, the battles are easy as cake!)

4. The classic "Dragon-warrior-esque" battle system you probably don't love but have at least grown to tolerate! (I hope)

5. Themes dealing with depression,death,soul transference,abuse,rape,and taking responsibility for one's own actions.

7. Ability to find and view "memories" in order to better flesh out miscellaneous plot details.

8. Battlers by Thalzon and Qut

9. Original music tracks by Blake

10. All other sources accredited in the credit roll at the end!


http://www.mediafire.com/download/os...rdelveX3.5.zip

The most current version of the game is X3. The difference from X? Mainly brushed up dialogue and added more character movements in one of the branching "mini endings" after the credit roll.

If you are wondering yes,your saves are still capable with the updated game!

As of now I'm tired of refining this beaten horse so unless you find something that breaks the game entirely, I'm going back to being comfortably lazy!


Warning for Let's play peeps

The game uses commercial music. Every source is listed in the ending credit roll but I know youtube has some rather dicey copyright infringement rules in place.

As much as I'd like to see "Let's plays" of my game, I also don't want anyone to go through the hassle of having their stuff taken down.

For the record, a basic text review would be flattering enough!


The art

Fan-service doesn't make me angry. Seriously,it's just one of those things that doesn't offend me at all. I guess all those years playing fighting games and reading comics like Lady Death desensitized me. I don't understand how bouncing breasts,panty shots,and skin tight spandex can be considered "misogyny" towards women. I do not perceive some sort of hidden conspiracy to degrade and subjugate women whenever I view Miranda Lawson's ass or Lulu's tits. I simply notice human biology bleeding into human expression.

It was with that philosophy I went into creating character art for Gutterdelve. I came from a time where seeing a little thong action or a sexy pose didn't offend many geeks. (Even the females I knew who read comics like I did.)

Be that as it may,Gutterdelve's story had a life of its' own. The characters became deeper and more human. The narrative became more genuine and sincere. Suddenly my art seemed stuck in the past whereas the rest of my project had moved on.

Yet even decked out in erotic fetishistic costumes those young women were still Amy,Deidre,Kara,and ANGI staring back at me. After all,it's not as if they had become whole other people from what I had originally imagined.

My point is I'm not ashamed of my art. My concept designs are not perfect or even "the best" on an amateur level but as with my writing my illustrations were detrimental to creating my game.

With that, I'm proud to present my Gutterdelve art folder! Maybe you'll think I'm a pervert after viewing it. I hope instead you might get insight into how things started in relation to how they were finished.


http://www.mediafire.com/download/ha...rdelveX3.4.zip

Last edited by BrokenH; 01-01-2014 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:55 PM   #2
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Post Re: Update

Had no interest in my game? That's "good" actually. Another update is
forthcoming. What does it do? Players will be able to fight a hard or easy version of the last boss. After the credits there will be different ending sequences depending on your choice. (Don't worry,you're not penalized for fighting the easier opponent,the conclusion will merely be "unique" as opposed to being better or worse)

You'll be able to know what's up because the latest version will have the title "Gutterdelve: Closet Cases X" as opposed to "Gutterdelve: Closet cases: Full game".

I'll try to update my mediafire account as quickly as I am able.

Last edited by BrokenH; 11-08-2013 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:35 AM   #3
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
In truth it sparked much more of a public outcry because of racy fan art and certain controversial themes. Does that make it "good"? Not really unless it is perhaps your kind of thing!
This made me laugh hard! It''s got to be one of the most original ways I've ever seen to 'sell' your game.

I fixed what looked like broken formatting around your picture. I removed the extra [IMG] tag, as well as the multiple "Hosted by Imageshack" lines. Finally, I changed the direct link into a simple picture, since the link was just to the picture anyhow. If any of this was intentional, let me know and I'll be happy to revert my changes.

Also, I personally think the big font in your entire posts in this thread is distracting, but it's your call in the end.

I hope your game finds as much success here as at RPG Maker Net! Looking forward to delving into some of the atmosphere.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:16 AM   #4
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
This made me laugh hard! It''s got to be one of the most original ways I've ever seen to 'sell' your game.

I fixed what looked like broken formatting around your picture. I removed the extra [IMG] tag, as well as the multiple "Hosted by Imageshack" lines. Finally, I changed the direct link into a simple picture, since the link was just to the picture anyhow. If any of this was intentional, let me know and I'll be happy to revert my changes.

Also, I personally think the big font in your entire posts in this thread is distracting, but it's your call in the end.

I hope your game finds as much success here as at RPG Maker Net! Looking forward to delving into some of the atmosphere.
I don't mind reducing font size,sorry bout that! As for the "clean up"? All I can do is be grateful and say "Thanks!".

But yeah, I don't know how confident I am about my game here. Sure, I love it but creators and their works are like mothers who adore their ugly children!

I attempted to be all "deep" and stuff but this might all come off as a 14 year old trying to channel Shakespeare. (Even though I'm 35 that doesn't make me mature. lol.)

Anyway,bask in the awfulness! Bask I say!

PS: Besides for a few benevolent souls, RMN hates me. There's a joke about that in the game too. lol

Last edited by BrokenH; 11-08-2013 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 03:19 AM   #5
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

Hey BrokenH, I started playing your game last night and got just a bit further than the boss in the hospital.

I like the modern-ish setting with the alternate dimension intruding. It feels a bit like Shin Megami Tensei in a good way. And some of the plot devices I've seen thus far are genuinely interesting to me, enough make me want to keep playing. But is the protagonist supposed to be your alter ego or something? He feels like a Marty Stu/self-insert too often, like he shares a lot of what are probably your traits and speaks with your voice and opinions on things.

The "card finder system" is pretty darn strange, as it feels like there's barely any point to the very frequent random battles once you find the card(s) in an area. It's like a grind without grinding to have to fight (or escape from) so many random encounters that you're overleveled for and yet which populate the areas you need to be in for the story.
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Old 11-09-2013, 03:37 AM   #6
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by TheHonorableRyu View Post
Hey BrokenH, I started playing your game last night and got just a bit further than the boss in the hospital.

I like the modern-ish setting with the alternate dimension intruding. It feels a bit like Shin Megami Tensei in a good way. And some of the plot devices I've seen thus far are genuinely interesting to me, enough make me want to keep playing. But is the protagonist supposed to be your alter ego or something? He feels like a Marty Stu/self-insert too often, like he shares a lot of what are probably your traits and speaks with your voice and opinions on things.

The "card finder system" is pretty darn strange, as it feels like there's barely any point to the very frequent random battles once you find the card(s) in an area. It's like a grind without grinding to have to fight (or escape from) so many random encounters that you're overleveled for and yet which populate the areas you need to be in for the story.
The card system is flawed. I did give players the choice of "not" using the cards but admittedly the temptation is kind of unfair. (As gamers it's ingrained in our very natures to improve our characters whenever we can.)

Frankly,the battles are not the point as much as the story. The only reason they are there is for metaphor sake. (And you will notice as the game goes on the creatures say things that are more & more personal.)

Luckily you will notice because you are usually "over powered" escaping is usually an option. (VX Ace has the weird stipulation where the stronger you are the higher chance you have of running away without getting stuck.)

Last edited by BrokenH; 11-09-2013 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:19 AM   #7
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
The card system is flawed. I did give players the choice of "not" using the cards but admittedly the temptation is kind of unfair. (As gamers it's ingrained in our very natures to improve our characters whenever we can.)
I realize that the picking up the cards is optional, but since the progression system is not deep that I can tell (at least the Dragon Quest series often has class systems) I feel like there's no real reward to incentive to willingly level up through grinding. It's not so much of a "temptation" as a "no-brainer." Unless there's some kind of storyline ramifications that I wasn't aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
Frankly,the battles are not the point as much as the story. The only reason they are there is for metaphor sake. (And you will notice as the game goes on the creatures say things that are more & more personal.)

Luckily you will notice because you are usually "over powered" escaping is usually an option. (VX Ace has the weird stipulation where the stronger you are the higher chance you have of running away without getting stuck.)
Yeah, you're right, the battles and the battle sayings do serve as a plot device. But I think this could be done at least as effectively through event battles rather than frequent random encounters.

I already have been escaping from most battles (I haven't had a failed escape yet), but like I said, it's a bit of a "grind without grinding" to repetitively hit escape or select (say) Fire II and Saint spells. I realize the storyline is your game's strong point, but I feel like the frequent random battles are nagging clutter surrounding it.

Anyway, more feedback once I get further along in the story!
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:25 AM   #8
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by TheHonorableRyu View Post
I realize that the picking up the cards is optional, but since the progression system is not deep that I can tell (at least the Dragon Quest series often has class systems) I feel like there's no real reward to incentive to willingly level up through grinding. It's not so much of a "temptation" as a "no-brainer." Unless there's some kind of storyline ramifications that I wasn't aware of.


Yeah, you're right, the battles and the battle sayings do serve as a plot device. But I think this could be done at least as effectively through event battles rather than frequent random encounters.

I already have been escaping from most battles (I haven't had a failed escape yet), but like I said, it's a bit of a "grind without grinding" to repetitively hit escape or select (say) Fire II and Saint spells. I realize the storyline is your game's strong point, but I feel like the frequent random battles are nagging clutter surrounding it.

Anyway, more feedback once I get further along in the story!
There are no story ramifications for using the cards. I guess that could have been an edgy twist to make it result in some sort of warped "bad ending" but I refrained from being a sadist in that regard.

You're right about the battles. If I ever do a future project I'll probably limit fights to story driven events without the tedious "random encounters".
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:46 AM   #9
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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There are no story ramifications for using the cards. I guess that could have been an edgy twist to make it result in some sort of warped "bad ending" but I refrained from being a sadist in that regard.
Yeah, that would be pretty sadistic, especially since you've presented the card system as a convenience for those who don't want to grind.

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You're right about the battles. If I ever do a future project I'll probably limit fights to story driven events without the tedious "random encounters".
A few weeks ago I finished Wine & Roses by Craze, and he had a pretty interesting format where every battle was basically one of 50+ boss/mini-boss battles during which story reveals often took place. The story itself was pretty much incoherent though (he made the whole game in about a month, and a lot of that must have went into making the very good custom battle system). But something similar might work well with a story you'd want to tell.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:35 PM   #10
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Yeah, that would be pretty sadistic, especially since you've presented the card system as a convenience for those who don't want to grind.

A few weeks ago I finished Wine & Roses by Craze, and he had a pretty interesting format where every battle was basically one of 50+ boss/mini-boss battles during which story reveals often took place. The story itself was pretty much incoherent though (he made the whole game in about a month, and a lot of that must have went into making the very good custom battle system). But something similar might work well with a story you'd want to tell.
There are "dark things" in the game but a trick ending ain't one! You can get different "mini endings" after the credit roll depending on the version of the end-boss you fight but both of those branches are simply "different" as opposed to being better or worse than each other.

I like Craze's idea. I would term it "dramatic story battle system" because I'm not creative enough to think up a better term. lol.

It's hard though. Aka, you want the challenge to be there but yet you don't want to make anything too difficult. In this case given the choice as an amateur, I made fights "easy" just so people could actually make it to the end. In retrospect, I went a bit "too far" with that premise. The "mega weapons" characters get towards the end don't help the issue either.

Last edited by BrokenH; 11-09-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 02:07 AM   #11
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

Alright, made it up to the police station, and liking the story thus far. The final encounter at the end of Ben's last dream sequence was pretty interesting thematically. (I'd be more specific but I'm minding the spoilers.)

It's odd, although your game is covering issues like rape, suicide, abuse, and mental illness, to me it doesn't feel as melodramatic and exploitative as it might sound on paper. I think it's because I feel your emphasis is not on the issues themselves (as if it was for pure shock value or whatever) but on how the characters wrestle, cope, or come to terms with them, even long after the fact.

I did look up your "racy" artwork for the game on rpgmaker.net and I can definitely see why people would complain--the female characters are absurdly sexualized. But the game's not like that tonally, at least that I've seen. Do you feel like the art generated more downloads for your game, or did it cause more people to not take your game seriously?
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:50 PM   #12
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by TheHonorableRyu View Post
Alright, made it up to the police station, and liking the story thus far. The final encounter at the end of Ben's last dream sequence was pretty interesting thematically. (I'd be more specific but I'm minding the spoilers.)

It's odd, although your game is covering issues like rape, suicide, abuse, and mental illness, to me it doesn't feel as melodramatic and exploitative as it might sound on paper. I think it's because I feel your emphasis is not on the issues themselves (as if it was for pure shock value or whatever) but on how the characters wrestle, cope, or come to terms with them, even long after the fact.

I did look up your "racy" artwork for the game on rpgmaker.net and I can definitely see why people would complain--the female characters are absurdly sexualized. But the game's not like that tonally, at least that I've seen. Do you feel like the art generated more downloads for your game, or did it cause more people to not take your game seriously?
A bit of both on the art front. Aka, some probably downloaded it because of the art and some probably refused to download it because of the art. (The people with the harshest criticisms didn't seem to be people who played the game though. They were too busy complaining about the illustrations and putting my ethical integrity into question.)

Personally I started gaming when "fan service" wasn't a problem. People could look at Cammy's buttocks or Taki's cameltoe in those days without flipping out. lol. However, I do admit the tone of the game is drastically different from the tone of the art. (I always had the idea for Gutterdelve but originally I wanted to make it a beat em up rpg hybrid similar to River City Ransom or Scott Pilgrim. Beat em ups usually have sexy female characters. But when I didn't have that option left to me I made it a standard rpg and deepened the story.)

I admit if I could do it again I might have refrained from putting up my art. I didn't know people would be so wound up over it. A few snide remarks? Sure. But the sheer amount of negativity that flooded my page? It surprised me. Though it shouldn't have. I still remember an article calling Hideo Kojima "misogynistic" over one of his sexy female characters introduced in MGS5. No one would ever make an outlandish accusation like that 10 years ago. There's a lot of sensationalism going around and people want to feel morally superior I suppose.

I guess it's a generational thing. New generations are more sensitive about this kind of stuff than I was as a teen. Yet I don't feel "obligated" to change with the trends. To me that's a form of self censorship.

I do feel like I was kind up thrown under the bus because of my art. So yeah,people might go into the game not taking it seriously or perhaps hoping it's some kind of hentai eroge game when in reality it's absolutely not. (Despite the fact it deals with sexual themes and one of the female characters specializes in being a bit promiscuous. lol.)

Last edited by BrokenH; 11-10-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:47 AM   #13
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

Ah, I see. Well, I agree that some people get emotional kicks out of feeling morally superior to others and make a habit of looking for occasions to do so, but at the same time I do think there is a lot of misogyny and pervy Othering of women in the gaming/anime/comic subculture. I think the difference between now and ten years ago is that the bubble is being confronted by the culture outside now that it's been getting more exposure, especially since the advent of the Internet.

--
In Gutterdelve I'm currently at...
*** SPOILERS ***
...the manor after you escape the alternate dimension.
*** END SPOILERS ***
Since last time there's been a few turns in the storyline that I found a bit off-putting. In my opinion the plot reveal concerning the characters' origins is interesting but could have been made more believable: each character rapidly accepts and assimilates the info dump while scarcely missing a beat. When this is combined with the one-dimensional villains whose existence is simply to be unbelievably hateful, narrow-minded "sick %#@$s," as they are repeatedly called, I feel like your story is overplaying the social outcast theme. Earlier you had an interesting scene where Robby is portrayed as having at least a shred of moral standards compared to his cronies, but all that is cast aside in the morbid Deidre school scene. It's almost as if vengeance is being taken against bullies by imagining and portraying their type as pure evil and hatred, and to me the overall sense here is less like a 14-year-old trying to channel Shakespeare than a channeling of the Disturbed songs that you've included in your soundtrack.

Concerning the protagonist...
*** SPOILERS ***
After his sacrifice, for a little while I thought he might be gone permanently! As a player the sense of absence was fairly significant and I thought it would have been bold and clever of you to go there (from Crono to Cloud, it seems the departed hero is always recoverable in RPGs). But the characters' reactions to his sacrifice didn't feel that convincing (the pacing and tone doesn't change that much it and seems to skip almost directly to the characters at an "acceptance" stage), and of course it's soon revealed that he's not entirely dead and that there may be a chance to recover him. I'll have to play further to see where you're going with this, but right now it seems like it's too palpably taking a wish-fulfillment route: the character sacrificing himself and becoming his glorified ideal self and savior to his friends.

*** END SPOILERS ***
These issues aside, I like some of the mythology you've included and I do think you included some nice touches characterization-wise, like when Ben is described by his friends as always being only half-present and being "too good" at hiding secrets.

More feedback when I'm further along in your game!
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:07 AM   #14
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

Just wanted to pop in and say this is a really interesting conversation about the way to get the most out of your plot and characters. Ryu's been on a tear lately of really seeing what works and doesn't work in all different RM games, and it sounds like this is some good advice to work with if you decide to update Gutter-Delve or get far on a new game.

I checked out the art portfolio for the game (pretty good drawings!). I will say that I find it a lot harder to interpret Deidre as a character (in comparison to, say Kara or Lucian, who also have a sexy look), because I feel the picture is out-and-out telling me to stare at her bare bottom. So in that sense I personally see the heavy sexualization as something that's hurting both the picture and your character. Of course, anyone who threw your morals into question over this art, or accused you of misogyny, is just spewing nonsense.

I wanna give this game a try in the next month or two and see the story for myself. Feel free to bug me if I haven't posted anything about it by the end of the year! Until then, I'll look forward to following the discussion here.
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:46 AM   #15
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by TheHonorableRyu View Post
Ah, I see. Well, I agree that some people get emotional kicks out of feeling morally superior to others and make a habit of looking for occasions to do so, but at the same time I do think there is a lot of misogyny and pervy Othering of women in the gaming/anime/comic subculture. I think the difference between now and ten years ago is that the bubble is being confronted by the culture outside now that it's been getting more exposure, especially since the advent of the Internet.

--
In Gutterdelve I'm currently at...
*** SPOILERS ***
...the manor after you escape the alternate dimension.
*** END SPOILERS ***
Since last time there's been a few turns in the storyline that I found a bit off-putting. In my opinion the plot reveal concerning the characters' origins is interesting but could have been made more believable: each character rapidly accepts and assimilates the info dump while scarcely missing a beat. When this is combined with the one-dimensional villains whose existence is simply to be unbelievably hateful, narrow-minded "sick %#@$s," as they are repeatedly called, I feel like your story is overplaying the social outcast theme. Earlier you had an interesting scene where Robby is portrayed as having at least a shred of moral standards compared to his cronies, but all that is cast aside in the morbid Deidre school scene. It's almost as if vengeance is being taken against bullies by imagining and portraying their type as pure evil and hatred, and to me the overall sense here is less like a 14-year-old trying to channel Shakespeare than a channeling of the Disturbed songs that you've included in your soundtrack.

Concerning the protagonist...
*** SPOILERS ***
After his sacrifice, for a little while I thought he might be gone permanently! As a player the sense of absence was fairly significant and I thought it would have been bold and clever of you to go there (from Crono to Cloud, it seems the departed hero is always recoverable in RPGs). But the characters' reactions to his sacrifice didn't feel that convincing (the pacing and tone doesn't change that much it and seems to skip almost directly to the characters at an "acceptance" stage), and of course it's soon revealed that he's not entirely dead and that there may be a chance to recover him. I'll have to play further to see where you're going with this, but right now it seems like it's too palpably taking a wish-fulfillment route: the character sacrificing himself and becoming his glorified ideal self and savior to his friends.

*** END SPOILERS ***
These issues aside, I like some of the mythology you've included and I do think you included some nice touches characterization-wise, like when Ben is described by his friends as always being only half-present and being "too good" at hiding secrets.

More feedback when I'm further along in your game!
Robby was corrupted more over time. Earlier on he had humanity but much like his father he "fell" due to the bad influences around him. Villains do not always improve or bounce back from the dark-side I'm afraid. (I tried avoiding the Anakin Skywalker cliche.)

I realize some people prefer redeemable villains but much like utter douche bags they are merely variations of familiar tropes. Both extremes have been used often in literature. The bad-dude with a heart of gold can be just as immature and insipid as his waste of flesh counter part. If I had pulled a predictable "Darth Vader tosses the evil emperor into the reactor core!" you'd be critiquing me for very different reasons right now.

*** SPOILERS ***
Perhaps the best stories have both kinds of villains but this was a first effort and I tried to mix it up the best I could. For example, the hunters are mostly stereotypical zealots with a Christian bent but there are also good Christians helping the protagonists. Dwayne is Catholic. Deidre herself was a brainwashed sleeper agent and was conflicted over her allegiance through the whole game right up until the HS chapter. Ben had many unsavory traits to his personality and the only reason he did anything "heroic" was because of the guilt he harbored over hurting those closest to him. I really didn't try to paint everyone with the same brush.
*** END SPOILERS ***


Back to the villainy,none of us want to believe someone can be so cruel but sometimes a spade is just a spade. Certain people simply enjoy bullying. All the better if they've adopted a philosophy that justifies it. Heck, there are memes out there of teens who have committed suicide because of malicious online trolling. Why? Because someone out there thought it would be "funny" to make a real life tragedy into an internet joke. I don't want to come off as overly defensive but it's mainly out of a need to explain things more thoroughly.

Lastly, character resolutions are wrapped up quickly because at the time I didn't know if there was going to be a sequel.(My pc is an aged clunker. It's still going strong but there have already been complications.) The reception to my first game hasn't exactly been warm either. lol. I also knew going in some people were going to bag on the project for not being the typical lighthearted romp.(So I was surprised when the "fan-service" was enough to cause a riot! Many swore of my game before even playing it. At least you had the resolution to see it through!)

Regardless, I hope you enjoyed it,Ryu. Here's hoping my next project will be more refined!

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Old 11-14-2013, 04:59 AM   #16
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Just wanted to pop in and say this is a really interesting conversation about the way to get the most out of your plot and characters. Ryu's been on a tear lately of really seeing what works and doesn't work in all different RM games, and it sounds like this is some good advice to work with if you decide to update Gutter-Delve or get far on a new game.

I checked out the art portfolio for the game (pretty good drawings!). I will say that I find it a lot harder to interpret Deidre as a character (in comparison to, say Kara or Lucian, who also have a sexy look), because I feel the picture is out-and-out telling me to stare at her bare bottom. So in that sense I personally see the heavy sexualization as something that's hurting both the picture and your character. Of course, anyone who threw your morals into question over this art, or accused you of misogyny, is just spewing nonsense.

I wanna give this game a try in the next month or two and see the story for myself. Feel free to bug me if I haven't posted anything about it by the end of the year! Until then, I'll look forward to following the discussion
here.
"The concept art" is what boned me. lol. Yet even after the angst I received I wouldn't say I'm throwing myself at the steps of the church to reform myself as an artist. I may be more careful next time but many people failed to realize the concept illustrations were merely where everything started as opposed to where everything ended up.

As for waiting, that might be for the best. I'm presently creating what I hope to be a better battle system. Random encounters are being eliminated in favor of visible enemies which respawn. Fights are still turn based but now you'll have a choice when to engage your opponents.
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:27 PM   #17
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Post Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

Just finished my experimental build of X3. X3 is not so much a better incarnation of the game as much as it is one that does away with "random encounters". Assuming those are the bane of your existence,this version might be a more pleasant alternative.

Specter system

1=When approached, specters representing the enemy will suddenly have an exclamation point above their heads as the turn based fight begins in earnest!

2=After being defeated, a specter will be “eliminated” for a total of 500 frames before re-spawning.

If you don't want to be forced into grinding and tedious battles against your will, "this" is the way to go.

However, X3 is a prototype. This means there could be some bugs or mistakes. Matter of fact, I'd be appreciative of anyone trying this version just to be sure nothing crashes the game.

So far the only error I've found is specters will often "stand in place" after re-spawning. It doesn't happen every time but it occurs enough to be noticeable.

Other thoughts

I've given what Ryu said a lot of thought and in future games I'd like to come up with a few villains who are not quite so "vile". Still, I have to question why we're okay with a lunatic in a tower killing thousands of people indiscriminately with a giant heat ray yet mind-control and rape somehow crosses the line. I realize the later crimes are more "personal" but I've never been someone who believes "sexual assault" is a worse fate than being outright murdered. We're so eager to show graphic dismemberment,be-headings, and gore drenched explosions in our entertainment. These acts of elevated violence that could potentially snuff out living people from this mortal coil. So why is it a tragedy someone can "survive" so much more controversial to explore in detail?

*** SPOILERS ***
The fact Deidre can live and improve herself despite what happened to her
in the past was the point of her tribulation. If given the choice I rather be slightly emotionally scarred by a traumatic event than to be six feet under as nothing more than carrion food!

Many of us think death is somehow more merciful than being sexually assaulted and this is kind of screwed up to me. It implies rape victims would be better off "dead" rather than being alive and moving on. I take quite a big offense to that.

Yes,Deidre did theoretically die. But outside the context of the story her new life as a homunculus was symbolic of her existence not being entirely over just because a bunch of bad things happened to her. Maybe I didn't get that across but that was my intention.

*** END SPOILERS ***

For this reason I'm not going to make an effort to sugar coat this particular story. Unfortunately there are truly evil people amongst us and just like a brain splatting head shot to the face, rape occurs in the real world. I understand why it's a sensitive subject for many people and that's precisely why I included a detailed warning in the beginning of my intro.

Ryu, I want you to know I'm not trying to be a dick. The fact you've gotten so far in my game is both inspiring and flattering. Instead of dismissing my creation right away, you were willing to give it a chance! I wish there were more people out there who had your code of conduct.

I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree on certain points. For the record, I harbor no ill will!

Download X3 version here!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/nd...y/Project3.zip

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Old 11-14-2013, 08:13 PM   #18
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
Specter system

1=When approached, specters representing the enemy will suddenly have an exclamation point above their heads as the turn based fight begins in earnest!

2=After being defeated, a specter will be “eliminated” for a total of 500 frames before re-spawning.

If you don't want to be forced into grinding and tedious battles against your will, "this" is the way to go.

...

Other thoughts

I've given what Ryu said a lot of thought and in future games I'd like to come up with a few villains who are not quite so "vile". Still, I have to question why we're okay with a lunatic in a tower killing thousands of people indiscriminately with a giant heat ray yet mind-control and rape somehow crosses the line. I realize the later crimes are more "personal" but I've never been someone who believes "sexual assault" is a worse fate than being outright murdered. We're so eager to show graphic dismemberment,be-headings, and gore drenched explosions in our entertainment. These acts of elevated violence that could potentially snuff out living people from this mortal coil. So why is it a tragedy someone can "survive" so much more controversial to explore in detail?
I avoided reading any of the spoiler info, but I've always been curious about this question you brought up as well. I mean in the real world I view rape as a considerably lesser crime than murder, but even in our justice system we sometimes treat it as equal or even worse, especially if it's forcible. Now in a fiction setting that does make more sense because killings - even brutal ones - are often portrayed as quick and "clean" (they don't linger there to torture you), whereas rape is more personal and intimate, as you mentioned, and also leaves more consequences around for the character to deal with. That is, I think, in a fantasy/fiction sense, what makes it such an interesting topic to use and explore. You can keep the character around but if you write it well there's gonna be a ton of emotional baggage to sort out. And I can understand why people would feel uncomfortable seeing it in a game or TV show - heck, I always feel really uncomfortable seeing it - but it's a superb plot device if you give it the weight it deserves. It sticks around with the player.

The new Specter system also sounds good. I always like being able to avoid battles when I don't feel like fighting, and run headlong into them when I do. I'll download your game soon and give it a try!
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:10 PM   #19
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Smile Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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I avoided reading any of the spoiler info, but I've always been curious about this question you brought up as well. I mean in the real world I view rape as a considerably lesser crime than murder, but even in our justice system we sometimes treat it as equal or even worse, especially if it's forcible. Now in a fiction setting that does make more sense because killings - even brutal ones - are often portrayed as quick and "clean" (they don't linger there to torture you), whereas rape is more personal and intimate, as you mentioned, and also leaves more consequences around for the character to deal with. That is, I think, in a fantasy/fiction sense, what makes it such an interesting topic to use and explore. You can keep the character around but if you write it well there's gonna be a ton of emotional baggage to sort out. And I can understand why people would feel uncomfortable seeing it in a game or TV show - heck, I always feel really uncomfortable seeing it - but it's a superb plot device if you give it the weight it deserves. It sticks around with the player.

The new Specter system also sounds good. I always like being able to avoid battles when I don't feel like fighting, and run headlong into them when I do. I'll download your game soon and give it a try!
I don't know if I wrote "the scenario in question" perfectly. But the question I'd pose to everyone is "How does an author write a rape scenario well?". I'd probably get very different answers from each person.

Ryu is most offended by the "textual detail" in the HS portion. I say that as I warning. However,it's not as if the character sprites are doing sex-related positions. When it comes to the visuals on screen, more is implied than shown. You're liable to see more softcore porn on Game Of Thrones or True Blood! (Both shows which also include "rape" in their extreme-o-phile manifestos. I will not even go into how easy it is for books to chart the same territory without being ridiculed for it.)

Regardless of the flak I may receive, I'm proud of Deidre as a character! I hope you at least get some enjoyment out of my humble first game, Wave-length!

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Old 11-15-2013, 07:20 AM   #20
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Re: Gutter-delve closet cases

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Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
Ryu, I want you to know I'm not trying to be a dick. The fact you've gotten so far in my game is both inspiring and flattering. Instead of dismissing my creation right away, you were willing to give it a chance! I wish there were more people out there who had your code of conduct.
Yup, I understand, and I also hope you don't feel like I'm trying to put you or your game "on trial," so to speak. There are aspects I enjoy, but I'm also offering what I consider to be problem areas for your consideration.

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Robby was corrupted more over time. Earlier on he had humanity but much like his father he "fell" due to the bad influences around him. Villains do not always improve or bounce back from the dark-side I'm afraid. (I tried avoiding the Anakin Skywalker cliche.)

I realize some people prefer redeemable villains but much like utter douche bags they are merely variations of familiar tropes. Both extremes have been used often in literature. The bad-dude with a heart of gold can be just as immature and insipid as his waste of flesh counter part. If I had pulled a predictable "Darth Vader tosses the evil emperor into the reactor core!" you'd be critiquing me for very different reasons right now.
Well, the thing is that all villains don't have to fall into one of the two clichés, as I think you already said you recognize. The VX Ace game "The Master of the Wind" by Volrath and Artbane explores similar themes (the main antagonists are members of a cult that is trying to revive a fallen empire's agenda to destroy all non-human sentient races), and I feel they did a pretty good job of creating a variety of villains, who have conflicts of interests or principles on certain points, and often act as foils to one another. There was element of intrigue in discovering who is misguided or brainwashed, who can be shaken from their precepts, and who is really the one ultimately pulling all the strings. I felt like you were going in this direction by portraying Robby as not being as sadistic as his cronies, but his further characterization was to transform into yet another one-dimensional "sick $#@" villain like all the others.

But anyway, my main point wasn't to complain about vile villains or even one-dimensional villains in and of themselves. It's more specific, and it has more to deal with tone in creative writing or storytelling. Basically I feel that the pure evil villains plus the reveal about the heroes' origins results in melodrama (e.g., see this definition used in the context of creative writing in this article). The protagonists are too obviously victims (and viewed sympathetically despite any faults), the antagonists too obviously villains, and the "bullies victimizing social outcasts" theme exaggerated. Like Disturbed devoting a whole song to how hypocritical and narrow-minded some "bold mofo" is, it's simplistic, it's black and white, it's overshooting the target, and not so very deep, complex, challenging, or intellectually rewarding. Earlier I said that I felt like your game was doing a good job at avoiding melodrama given how controversial the issues you meant to explore, but I feel like further plot developments directed things more in the opposite direction, with just a little to compensate for it (such as Dwayne being a Catholic, and thus it's not that all religious people are stereotypically bad.) But I haven't finished the game yet, so maybe there's more you're doing with this that I haven't seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
I've given what Ryu said a lot of thought and in future games I'd like to come up with a few villains who are not quite so "vile". Still, I have to question why we're okay with a lunatic in a tower killing thousands of people indiscriminately with a giant heat ray yet mind-control and rape somehow crosses the line. I realize the later crimes are more "personal" but I've never been someone who believes "sexual assault" is a worse fate than being outright murdered. We're so eager to show graphic dismemberment,be-headings, and gore drenched explosions in our entertainment. These acts of elevated violence that could potentially snuff out living people from this mortal coil. So why is it a tragedy someone can "survive" so much more controversial to explore in detail?
In terms of why people were offended, I think the issue has less to do with "which is morally worse: murder or rape?" and more to do with where does the author/creator stand in relation to the subject matter.

The people who were offended certainly weren't accusing you of promoting rape (and you obviously condemn such actions in your game), but they were concerned about misogyny or perviness. And here I think the factor that causes people to react more strongly is how much your female characters are sexualized. The artwork you did is the most overt and probably the biggest reason why people were offended, but similar sexualization does make it into your game.
*** SPOILERS ***
Sarah/Deidre is raped and Kara is sexually promiscuous. In the manor you can switch the female characters' costumes to "nude," but not the male characters' costumes. Ben manages to feel sexually aroused by seeing Deidre being raped by Robby and his dad (though he feels very guilty about it). Ben's friends discover that Ben has drawn lewd pictures of Kara that he keeps hidden in his bedroom and they ultimately kind of laugh it off has harmless.
*** END SPOILERS ***
So when a supervillain wipes out a population with a heat ray as a plot device in a work, the viewers probably aren't going to think that the work's creator sees people as objects to be wiped out by death rays. The fictional portrayal is remote from the creator's actual attitudes towards people and how they should be viewed. However, suppose that misogyny is the concern about another work, and people see that the main female characters are either raped or sexually objectified, or that it's always the women who get the worst treatment, or that women are portrayed in sexually-compromised ways as if it is not at all demeaning. They're probably more likely to feel like the creator's preoccupations are too palpably overtaking the choice of possible plot devices, and thus more likely to call the creator's own view of women into question.

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Originally Posted by BrokenH View Post
Just finished my experimental build of X3. X3 is not so much a better incarnation of the game as much as it is one that does away with "random encounters". Assuming those are the bane of your existence,this version might be a more pleasant alternative.
Sounds good. In the most recent dungeon I was just mindlessly wiping out enemies with what I assume are the "mega weapons," which deal more damage than most of my best spells. Is this version worth downloading for use my current save files with given how far I am in the game, or are there no more random battles left?

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