Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

[Deeth Irteen]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

: Cliches aren't always bad!!

Yeah, not always. just most of the time.

[Wavelength]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

Well, when you get into tried-and-true gameplay structures like "Save Points" rather than some of the more unnecessary cliches like the ones the Grand List likes to call out (George W. Bush Geography Simplification Initiative, anyone? How about those nine laws of travel?), you're going to name a lot that are usually better played straight.

Like I said, I can only think of two ways to get around the Save Points cliche without ruining your game, and both require significant changes to the traditional game structure. I can think of several more ways to avert or subvert the cliche that will cause your game to lose quality, but I feel that legendary game designer Sid Meier said it best when he said that fun always trumps realism.

Well, maybe I'm overlooking something. What do you think; what would you do to avert/subvert the standard Save Points system, yet still make the game just as fun for the audience?



EDIT: Hey, by the way, D13, I know you're making good progress on your current game, and I was just wondering whether you've implemented some of these cliche-breakers into that? If so, I was really curious how that's working out, like whether you feel happy with the game balance, and whether breaking one cliche made it harder to break others. A few of the cliches in this thread are actually things I've been playing around with trying to create new systems for in my game, whereas a lot of them, so far, I think I'm okay with just giving people exactly what they expect.

[Deeth Irteen]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

How's about doing what Golden Sun did: allow the player to save whenever they want. Problem solved.

[Wavelength]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

How's about doing what Golden Sun did: allow the player to save whenever they want. Problem solved.

Nicely gets around tipping players off, and probably works well for really lighthearted, easy games. However, in most cases, it's going to make your game worse, for three reasons:

1) Many players will save after nearly every battle/event, and therefore spend a lot of time on the Save screen, which isn't exactly the most riveting part of most games.

2) For players that do save constantly, it takes away the entire risk/reward element. Why not take insane risks and put yourself in danger's way just to get a little boost, if you can save right before you do it? In Azure Dreams, you need to weigh the risks of proceeding onwards (when, let's say, you're low on health but near a quest objective) versus "playing it safe" and leaving the tower using an escape item. Persona 3/4 work the same way (but with a Game Over rather than a moderate death penalty): take your gains and go home to rest (losing a day of game time), or proceed onwards with injured party members? Allow a save anywhere, and you lose this thrilling element.

3) Players who forget to constantly save can get surprised by a boss appearance, and then they'll lose a lot of progress because they forgot to "save scum". Not fun. This has happened to me in certain games and I don't like when it does!!

Also, please read the edit in my last post, D. I'd be interested to hear your response

[Deeth Irteen]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

I hate to say this, but my game's in limbo. I don't have a Max Drive or a phancy shmancy way to show pics or videos of it. I have no way to prove it exists to the peoples on the pav but thanks for asking.


Oh, and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything. If you think the classic save point system is an okay cliche, that's fine.

[Wavelength]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

Not at all - there's no hostility from my end and I sense none from yours. I love discussing this stuff; once a cliche is identified I think the more interesting part is figuring out where it fits into games, and where it doesn't. You've named a lot of cliches and I think at least some of them are really worth examining further.

I don't necessarily think Save Points right before bosses are a great thing, it's just that in a lot of cases they're a necessary evil, and trying to eliminate them can make your game less fun. This often tends to be the case with gameplay mechanic cliches (nonstandard shop systems, for example: even in professional games they tend to be either heaven or hell, more often the latter).

Once you've got a demo (or the full game) ready for submission, I'm sure you could send someone your memory card and have them upload it for you using their Max Drive and then send the memory card back. I'd be happy to do this for you.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

Save points aren't a cliché. They're a gameplay element. Generally, the characters in video games never actually acknowledge their existance, outside of tutorials (and they don't count, 'cause the tutorials also talk about pressing buttons on a controller). The only game to my knowledge where the characters do acknowledge their existance is Chrono Cross.

I don't like the option to save anywhere, for the reasons Wavelength posted. Although, for some games, it's definately a welcome feature. *coughaidyncrhoniclescough*

My personal preference for save points is to have them, but NOT right before the boss. Otherwise, when you die, there's no real penalty outside of having to watch that cutscene again (although that can be a big penalty if the custcene is long; some games really need the option to skip cutscenes). Instead, that last save point should be a couple rooms before the boss's lair, at the very least. That way, when you die, you'll have to work you way a bit to get there again, but it won't be TOO far.

Better yet, I like it when a Game Over doesn't mean you are sent back to the title screen, but instead are brought back to the save point, with all the experience points you've earned since then still intact (but with a good chunk of your money gone, to balance it out). That way, there's a chance that, on the small trek back to the boss, you'll gain an extra level, which may give you the edge you need to win the fight.

Reason I like this is because, in games like the Dragon Quest series, if a boss kills me, no problem. I'll just take my kept experience and fight back to the boss a few times. Odds are, I'll eventually gain enough experience to defeat the boss. Otherwise, if getting a Game Over sends you back to the title screen, I have to stop and take the time to level grind, and that's no fun at all.

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

As far as there existence, sure. But if a boss totally wastes my ass along with my other two or three party members (and it happens to everyone), I'm not really in the mood to go through the slightly ridiculous, five-floor gauntlet of omega-super-death-of-death all over again. You know what happens after that? I play a different game until I "feel like" doing it all over again. Also hoping that I have my tactics this time to beat the boss or die again. Meaning I'll have to grind another long and tedious journey back to the save point. And sometimes that doesn't happen. And sometimes its a good break point. As a player, lack of save spots just aren't fun. It's just a matter of where good spots for placing them would be by thinking like a player, which is what the designer should be trying to do 100 percent of the time during the process.

But acknowledging them by breaking the fourth wall? Eh. I think Dray covered that well enough.

[Deeth Irteen]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

My number one offender of cliches is this: Those GOD. DAMN. RANDOM ENCOUNTERS.


In most games, they're all annoying as hell. But my biggest offender is Final Fantasy 4 for the DS. They're about as frequent as usual, sure, but ya wanna know what adds insult to injury? When an encounter activates, the screen spins around in a circle while an annoying "Ooeee Ooeee" sound plays. and THEN, you have to wait a while for the fight to even begin!






Final Fantasy 12 is my favorite RPG ever.

[Biggie]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

Random encounters don't bug me in turn based RPG's as along as the battle system is something other than a mash x button fest. Like saaay FFXIII?

[Wavelength]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

Random encounters aren't a cliche any more than RPG's themselves are a cliche, which is why I'm tempted to split this into a "Let's defy trite RPG gameplay mechanics" topic.

At any rate, I mostly agree with D13 here: I universally would rather have enemies visible on the map and be able to hunt or avoid them (or at least try) to my heart's desire. It's fine if the battle takes place on a separate map, or if it takes place on the same screen as the "adventure". I'd rather have either one than have some step counter that forces me to battle at random whether I like it or not.

Even completely random battles can be OK if the encounter rate is reasonably low and the battles are engaging. I never tired of Star Ocean 2's battles, for instance. But the "mash X button" battles completely break your immersion in the game, and even strategic battle systems can get really tiresome when what you really wanted was to move on quickly.

Because RPGM3 doesn't have a decent system for event movement, I took a middle ground in Panacea and placed invisible events throughout my dungeons to simulate "random encounters" (rather than using the built-in RE system). The nice part was that once you beat one, it turned off and didn't restore until you leave the dungeon. So if you get stuck on a puzzle, or get lost, at least your encounter rate will drop off over time and you won't be interrupted every 12 steps.

For my RMXP game, however, I'm going to go all the way and make the encounters something that only happen when you bump into enemies on adventure maps.

[Deeth Irteen]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

In FiFaTa, in dungeons, I did a similar thing, only you choose whether you want to fight or not, and the events didn't turn off.

RPGM3's battle system is a pain in the ass.

[Red Dragon]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

Yeah, not always. just most of the time.

Tropes are tools. They're not good or bad.

If you want something that has no tropes, ever, at all. Here.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...eTropelessTale

Good luck.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

ya wanna know what adds insult to injury? When an encounter activates, the screen spins around in a circle while an annoying "Ooeee Ooeee" sound plays. and THEN, you have to wait a while for the fight to even begin!

I'm suspicious that this is actually sarcasm, but I'll respond anyway. You can't really complain about battle transitions, can you? They're like a classic part of RPGs. And FF4DS's load times aren't any worse than those in FF3 on the SNES.

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Let's defy some more RPG cliches...

(Dray's post above)

Well, random encounters don't bug me much. There's a time for them. Sometimes I'll take five steps on a world map to get into another random encounter when the game is trying to get me to focus on something in the adventuring aspect and that is a little annoying because it diverts my focus. But I liked the "you have been ambushed and must defend yourself" approach some western games take with random encounters (concerning world travel). Usually there is just one or maybe two encounters depending on the pre-set path traveled. Not to sound like a broken record and one of the Pavilion's die-hard, Bioware-fanboys buuut...

Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, Dragon Age.

Some JRPGs were fun with random encounters, especially when I could do more anime-ish, over-the-top moves and powers (like the "Limit Break" in some of the Final Fantasy games) on the weak critters. The only time when random encounters really bug me is when I'm trying to focus on something "in-the-world," and its usually a puzzle of some kind. That's distracting for me, personally.

In RPG Maker, though. This is typically controlled by making all encounters engaged by the player, if the software allows it (advantages and disadvantages there), or keeping them random. There really isn't a lot that can be done there without chewing a brick of memory.