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    #31
    Re: Scooters

    Riding a bike on the sidewalk in St. Louis will get you fined. Riding it on the street will get you killed. Sadly, I speak from experience. Luck...

    I'm a very big supporter of this mode of transportation and I'm very excited about this scooter. Lately, I have seen more and more scooters on the road than I have in previous years, so I am assuming they are increasing in popularity. However, it seems as though most people tend to scoff at the functionality of such a vehicle while they dump 24 gallons of gas into their H2, perhaps because they view scooters more as toys. While scooters are significantly more fun to ride, I definitely wouldn't consider them play things. Personally, living in the city, using the scooter is a far more convenient way to reach destinations than using my car has been, especially with local highways being rendered useless from constant construction (Google Maps even has a feature that gives me directions without using highways). It's much easier to navigate through congested traffic and parking is much easier when I can just pull up the sidewalk for short stops. The scooter I have gets over 90 mpg as well and scooters with smaller engines can get over 100. I guess I just like scooters, so what do you think?
    I'm not particularly fond of most scooters because they aren't designed to maximize the efficiency they could obtain. 90 mpg might seem like a lot, but it is possible to get a compact car to achieve that if you use composite materials to lower weight, heavily streamline the aerodynamics, use low rolling resistance tires, and use an efficient diesel engine(The GM Precept prototype got 80 mpg, did 0-60 mph in 11 seconds, and was the size of a Ford Taurus sedan. The Loremo AG can exceed 150 miles per gallon, tops out at 100 mph and seats 4 people). A scooter? If someone made a streamlined scooter that used a 500 cc diesel engine(which is ****ing huge for a scooter), 200+ miles per gallon wouldn't be out of the question.

    Horsepower to overcome rolling drag is proportional to weight and varies linearly with speed. Horsepower to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to frontal area and varies as a cube of the speed. The more horsepower used to maintain a given speed, the more fuel will be used to maintain that speed. After about 25 mph or so, aerodynamic drag, and not weight, is the biggest factor in fuel consumption. Scooters have very, very crappy drag coefficient, like in the 0.8-1.0 range. A typical midsize passenger car is around a .32 drag coefficient(which, if you were to lower it to about .16 through aerodynamic improvements, could yield 50 mpg midsize cars with no other changes and no loss in size, comfort, or performance).

    The reason the scooters get the good fuel economy they do compared to cars is mostly because of low weight and horsepower starved engine. The low frontal area helps cancel out the negative impact of the high drag coefficient, and they often use efficient two-stroke engines which have the adverse effect of increasing air pollution. An internal combustion engine tends to be most efficient at low RPMs and a load between 1/2 and 2/3 of full throttle, peaking at about 25-30% thermal efficiency. Most passenger cars are using only about 1/10th their peak horsepower to maintain highway speeds, so they are usually operating at about 10-15% thermal efficiency. Since scooters have such small, power-starved engines, and are running higher compression ratios than most passenger car engines(look up Carnot's equation to see how this effects thermal efficiency) you'll usually need to be using a higher percentage load than most passenger cars will use, and therefore you will see a higher percentage thermal efficiency in normal operation of the engine. If you don't believe me, look at a brake specific fuel consumption map of an Otto cycle engine and a two stroke engine.

    What especially bothers me about scooters is poor pollution control systems(motorcycles have this problem too). Most models lack a catalytic converter and the high compression ratios of the two-stroke engines make pollution control difficult. These factors conspire to increase the amount of CO, NOx, particulates, HCs, and VOCs emitted is to be roughly 60-100 times more than a passenger car per unit of fuel used(depending on study cited).

    However, I must commend you for choosing to use a vehicle that uses about 1/4th the gasoline per unit of distance as a typical passenger car. That's more than I'm doing to lower oil consumption considering my electric car is not on the road yet. I definately rate scooters above poorly maintained passenger cars.

    If I were to ever have a two-wheeled vehicle, I'd find me a used motorcycle, showhorn a 100 horsepower Volkswagen diesel into it, and slap a Craig Vetter faring on that *****. Instant 300+ mpg coupled with crotch-rocket like acceleration and top speed(with the right gearing).



    If you wish to increase the top speed and fuel efficiency of your scooter, I'd strongly recomend building a custom faring for it. If engine RPM is the limiting factor to top speed, then aerodynamic improvements alone won't improve it; you'll need taller gear ratios or a bigger tire size too. Since you're using a CVT, swapping gear ratios isn't possible, but if it has a minimal amount of electronics controlling it, the CVT may actually adjust its ratio sufficiently to allow the lower drag to impact top speed.
    Last edited by The Toecutter; 08-06-2007, 12:31 AM.
    The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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      #32
      Re: Scooters

      I've been wanting a Yellow Vespa since FLCL.

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        #33
        Re: Scooters

        Terr, you are right with that, as far as I can tell.

        The point is, people don't have the type of time you have. I have a job, and I have a big town to navigate. $2000 to get around for the next few years at 90 mpg, and only requires a license, and buying the thing? Fantastic.

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          #34
          Re: Scooters

          Whoever has one, just be very careful not to get it stolen. Happens a lot with scooters and similar vehicles. There are a few folks on the electric vehicle discussion list and elsewhere who have had electric scooters and electric-assist bicycles stolen from them.
          The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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            #35
            Re: Scooters

            We don't need yer clown cars here, Terr!

            "Couch co-op is the only true co-op." Richard of the Cooks.

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              #36
              Re: Scooters

              Originally posted by The_Real_Crunk View Post
              Yeah the spandex bike riders wither aerodynamic everything are mostly assholes. They ride IN traffic, and doo all kinds of stupid crap. They are just waiting to die, and just get in peoples way.
              Spandex bike riders with aerodynamic everything, yeah, are mostly assholes.

              But riding in traffic makes a lot more sense than riding on the sidewalk.
              The city of Philadelphia says "A 1994 study showed that sidewalk cycling is almost twice as dangerous as cycling in the street, and cycling against the traffic on the sidewalk is over four times as dangerous as cycling in the street."

              Riding on the sidewalk or on the far right of the road, to me, seems to be an invitation to get hit by cars turning (or opening their doors if you're on the street). If you act as another vehicle in traffic you're much safer...you're in plain view and following the same paths as everyone else.

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                #37
                Re: Scooters

                Also, Jeff, there are ways you could drive that scooter to maximize fuel efficiency as well. Google search 'hypermiling techniques'. One risk is that a motorcycle or scooter is more dangerous than a car during accidents, so hypermiling may not be conducive to the driving style necessitated by a motorcycle, scooter, or small sports car. But if you can sdo it without increasing your risk, go for it. Driving style can effect your fuel economy greatly, and I've made a few 35-40 mpg runs around Illinois in a vehicle that normally gets like 20 mpg, by taking country roads with no traffic, staying at a steady 40-45 mph on those country roads, coasting down hills with the engine off, accelerating at about 2/3 throttle then keeping it steady when I've reached the desired speed, shifting up everytime the tachometer hits 2,500 rpm(I used to do it at 2,000 rpm, but I don't want to kill the clutch), coasting to stoplights, turning the engine off at stoplights, using 'pulse and glide' techniques on the highway, ect.

                I'm sure similar techniques could be applied to your scooter, although I've never experienced firsthand how coasting is effected by a continuously variable transmission, and some techniques may not be safely adapted to use in a two-wheeled vehicle.

                There may also be performance chips available for your scooter that could slightly increase horsepower and give a small 2-5% boost in fuel economy if you tune it right.

                Another option if you decide you want an upgrade? Swap a small 100cc diesel in it and run it on vegetable oil. Problem is, small diesels like these within a reasonable weight range aren't too common here in the U.S. Importing from other countries could add a lot to cost.

                You could also consider converting it to electric, which could feasibly give you about 30-40 miles range and 60 mph top speed for $1,500-2,000 in parts. A 72V pack of Hawker Genesis G12V42Ah10EP batteries(12V nominal each, 33 lbs, 42AH at the 20 hr rate), Advanced DC A89 6.7" series wound DC motor(At 72V, 6 horsepower continuous, 20 horsepower peak, 50 lbs), and an Alltrax AXE 7234 controller(48-72V, 300A peak, 200A 5 minute rating, 125A 1 hr rating) would be pretty wild in that thing. Your acceleration would improve dramatically with all of the torque a series-wound DC motor could provide, even at a meagre 300A of current. Put a 1,000A Zilla controller in that thing instead of an Alltrax, and your scooter would be dusting off Ferraris and Corvettes from 0-40 mph, but that would be a dangerous(and fun) waste of money. I don't think I'd trust being on a scooter popping a wheelie.

                We don't need yer clown cars here, Terr!
                The cars I speak of that get 70-100 mpg are midsize cars comparable in size to a Ford Taurus or Dodge Intrepid. The 150 mpg car(Loremo) is comparable in size to a Geo Metro. With addresssing aerodynamics, using a CVT instead of an automatic, LRR tires, and using a diesel engine, even 35-40 mpg full size SUVs are possible(see the various UC Davis Futuretruck reports).

                Efficiency of any vehicle we can buy in this country, even scooters, is nowhere near what could actually be achieved.

                Riding on the sidewalk or on the far right of the road, to me, seems to be an invitation to get hit by cars turning (or opening their doors if you're on the street). If you act as another vehicle in traffic you're much safer...you're in plain view and following the same paths as everyone else.
                Problem is, where I live, motorists purposely try to run you off the street because you're making them late for work/school/whatever. By and large, they tend to be wholly inconsiderate of cyclists, and hit and run accidents are frequent when they involve cyclists. Different cities will have different levels of danger. I've never had one accident cycling on the sidewalk, but I've had three while cycling on the street; one of them could have been fatal.
                Last edited by The Toecutter; 08-06-2007, 06:30 PM.
                The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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                  #38
                  Re: Scooters

                  I've always wanted to get a scooter or ride my bike more often, but it's really impractical with a 20+ mile commute to work and school.

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                    #39
                    Re: Scooters

                    There are people who have built electric-assist bicycles that can do 30 mph and about 30-40 miles per charge on electricity only(more if you pedal to assist the motor). Cost to build one is under $800 and would take about 150-200 hours of work if this is your first project. If I'd have known they were that cheap to build back in 2003, I'd have built one before I started my car. Too late now.

                    Recumbant bicycles are usually expensive, but their lower profile and windscreen help lower drag and frontal area sufficiently that the average adult male can pedal them to 25 mph and maintain that speed.

                    Then if you are crazy/suicidal, you could build yourself a velomobile-style bicycle with full faring incorporating the use of laminar flow aerodynamic principles. Those can be pedalled to over 60 mph. You can see those sorts of bikes in the link below:

                    www.speed101.com/

                    I think one of those converted from a bicycle into an electric motorcycle with a 30 kW drive would be loads of fun. For comparison, an athletic human can generate a peak of about 0.3-0.5 kW from their muscles.
                    Last edited by The Toecutter; 08-06-2007, 06:40 PM.
                    The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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