Video games as an artform

[Kire]

Everyone got all up in Roger Ebert's grill when he said he didn't consider video games to be an artform. I know most of us here would disagree with him, but what reasons do you consider it to be that to be true? For me, it's all about the combination of original imaginative gameplay, immersion (being graphics and sound), storytelling...to me, these must all come together to make a truely artful game that pushes the medium.

This is why I often say Nintendo is bad for video games as an artform. I believe they view games just as entertainment, and not so much as an art. While they've always had solid gameplay, they've been pushing the same thing with minor additions for years, and never push the immersion or storytelling aspects of their games. That's what worries me about them having the marketshare...because those w/ the most power sets the tone. It's the same reason I can't find any enjoyable DS games.

If Ebert wanted me to give him games that would convince him that video games are an artform, I would give him Shadow of the Collossus, Half Life 2, Ico God of War, or perhaps Indigo Prophecy. I wouldn't give him a Mario or Zelda game, because I don't think they fit the qualifications I specified earlier, or that they wouldn't convince him otherwise.

So the REAL question is, what do you consider makes video games an artform, or perhaps, why isn't it? Are video games mean just to be fun, or can they match movies and literature as a medium? What makes a game artful to you, and what factors do you consider to be minor?

Discuss.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: Video games as an artform

Some games are just that: games. Not a whole lot are more than that.

Personally, I don't find TV or movies an art form either. But then, when I think "art", I generally think of going to the museum to look at boring pictures when I'd rather be playing Game Boy.

[Red Dragon]

Re: Video games as an artform

Some games are just that: games. Not a whole lot are more than that.

Personally, I don't find TV or movies an art form either. But then, when I think "art", I generally think of going to the museum to look at boring pictures when I'd rather be playing Game Boy.

Same here. Unless they are RPGs (with engrossing stories). They really arn't a artform, like books. Then again you have art IN games, so it could be a portfolio of different artforms.

[The Dark Jester]

Re: Video games as an artform

MGS. Art.

Earthbound. Art.

Choanaki. Art.

[Biggie]

Re: Video games as an artform

I don't give a **** what a movie critic says about videogames. If a game with a Mushroom Kingdom as the setting, with a plumber for the hero, that grows when he eats mushrooms, headbutts bricks, and shoots fireballs aint art, then there isn't any games out there that are art.

Mario owns any random space/WWII shooter in the art department.

As for stories in games. I enjoy Megaman games that you play, not watch. You don't need story to pull off art, setting for the gameplay can do that.

[Nixon]

Re: Video games as an artform

Silent Hill, SOTC, Mojib Ribbon, etc. There are so many "arty" games that are beautiful to look at and fun to play... SH2 is a great game for the story alone. It would make a better movie than any of the ones I've seen in the past 10 years.

I would tell Ebert that I believe that everything around us is art, therefore videogames are an artform by default.

[gray]

Re: Video games as an artform

if we have to start viewing games as art, and therefore stop making "fun" the top priority, i'll pass.





you'd have to define what is an isn't art before you can say something belongs in the art category. i would say many parts of video games require art. story writing, programing, drawing, etc. but the end result is SUPPOSED to be entertainment. art and interaction usually(i say usually. please note that) don't go together. so to have an industry that is supposed to be 100% interaction, it's hard to throw it into the art category.



secondly, who gives a crap if it's art or not? you know the old saying "i may not know art but i know what i like?" well i don't care if roger ebert calls them interactive learning materials or large pieces of crap. I ENJOY THEM. so who cares?



also, the fact that you would give him some games and not others leads me to belive you already realize that all games are not art, and some simply incorporate artistic things into them in ways that interest you more than others.





****, i just want to have fun with my games. i don't want them hanging on walls in sterile gallerys with snooty berret wearing fancy pants' rubbing their soul patches and mumbling about how the game touches their soul.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

Re: Video games as an artform

interesting...

as art is up to each individual to define for himself i think games and other venues are also the same way.

i look at some famous painting with scribbles and crazy shapes and i tell you i dont think its art - however they are definatly art as they are widely sought after and sell for million of dollars.

perhaps this is the same for games, where some games are more easily defined as an art form, while other games are just a fun pass time.

art by defination is the use of creative imagination and skill to create an object (a game in this case). i think every games qualifies as an art form, but not all art is sold for the same price or has the same desirability.

[Kire]

Re: Video games as an artform

There's no disputing that video games are fun...hell, video games I consider to be artful are fun as hell. I'm just saying that games can be both art and entertainment. I guess I'm just one of the few that wants to see games respected on the same level as film as a medium, because I really think it has that potential because I've experienced it first hand.

Also, I'd say there are different kinds of fun. Nintendo games are pure entertainment, and there's nothing wrong with that. No one is going to get rid of casual games, that's quite obvious with the success of the DS. I'd just like to see more games like the one I had mentioned, that's all.

[gray]

Re: Video games as an artform

i get where you is coming from! and i, too, would like to see games get the respect they deserve. i don't know if that requires they be called art or not, though.


they call movies art, after all. so even the shittiest piece of **** they **** out is considered to be art.



we should create our own word. let the white man keep his art! ours will be....artainment!

[Magus]

Re: Video games as an artform

Saying Zelda or Mario isn't "art" is unfair. Yes, the obvious examples are Ico and Shadow of the Colossus but if the game elicits a strong reaction from the player like the grand expanse of Hyrule Field or the floaty feeling of jumping then - bingo - ART GET.

If Duchamp can put his name on a urinal and name it "Fountain" and get away with it then video games - "kiddie" or otherwise - are most certainly art. Art is something you react to. By that definition, video games are arguably the most cunning forms of expression around since you constantly react and react and react.

Half-Life 2, with its relentless barrage of gameplay-twisting events, is a prime example. A friend watched me play the other day and, impressed, remarked how much it reminded him of the way Peter Jackson's King Kong "grabbed hold of you and never let go. Is this game always like that?" I nodded, I thought that was very apt of him to say, as it also brings up the passivity of watching and reacting to a film as opposed to the interactivity of blasting my dune buggy with a gravity gun. If Half-Life 2 can gain the same, even heightened response, as PJ's King Kong then HL2 wins the "art" title.

Similarly, this was the same friend who last summer played Metal Gear Solid 2 for the first time. Once the credits stopped and the game was over he, very satisfied, turned to me and said "Holy ****. Kojima is a video game auteur." It's not like I could disagree with him.

[Garr123]

Re: Video games as an artform

It seems to me that there's still an attitude in the game industry to not make products that are too challenging on an intellectual and/or emotional level, and that attitude may never change. The cost of games is rising, it's hard to make something that can compete in the market and take real risks on a budget that game compant might bank it with. Anyone with something to say and time can write the next To Kill A Mockingbird, anyone with a small budget and a camera can make the next Pi or Waking Life, but who in the game industry can make the equivalent now?

It'll take a radical shift in how the game industry works before I could honestly put them on a level with the greatest works in literature and film. Right now there isn't a place for Bergmans, Werners, McCarthy's, etc. etc. in the video game creative process.

[Kire]

Re: Video games as an artform

Ironically, Garr, for as much as I've been harping on Nintendo, their virtual console is said to have games "made by 3 people worked on for 2 months." This could spark a sort of independant film effect, and the same goes for XBox Live. The thing I'm a little worried about is what the big N will allow to pass to sell on their virtual console...if something's the least bit contraversial they may not allow it on the virtual console because they know their base.

[Garr123]

Re: Video games as an artform

There's also the question of whether it's even possible to create a "game" that could actually confront someone and make them question their world views. Who would want to make a or play a game that could do that in the current enviroment? A game about being a young black man in 1930's America and dealing with overt racism on a daily basis, playing the part of a true psychopath and making the victims into real organic people who the player cares about and trying to break into the psyche of someone capable of such things. Where would terms like "winning" and "fun" fit into a game like that?

On that thought, many of the terms we use to describe games, even the word "game" itself place the medium in an awkward position and probably creates substantial mental blocks in the path to realising what it's true potential could be.

[Magus]

Re: Video games as an artform

There's also the question of whether it's even possible to create a "game" that could actually confront someone and make them question their world views. Who would want to make a or play a game that could do that in the current enviroment?

Kojima did.