Final Requests

[WilliamKirk]

I've thought about it, and if you (Valkysas) truly believe what you said about that first post from Ryner in the 'What Rules?!' topic, the Pavilion will never be a good place. I will be back tomorrow to see that my games/demos are taken off the Pavilion. I would also like my account to be deleted. As I said before, I can't allow myself to support behavior like that, and if that means abandoning the Pavilion forever, so be it. I'll do what I must. I can now see the new moderator thing was just a way to shut me up and prolong dealing with the issue, and that even with new moderators, you're still in charge, and with your beliefs of what good behavior is, the Pavilion won't change at all. I advise you do something about this before more people follow my lead. Those of you I like know where to find me.

RPGM2 Demos:

The Solemn Truth
Ocarina Tunes
Paladin
A Prequel to Paladin

[Valkysas]

okay, I've held back far too long on this issue.

SHUT THE HELL UP.

you dont know whats best for the pavilion. you don't even understand the goddamn pavilion. the area inside the RPG Maker related forums is drastically different than the areas outside. the areas outside the RPG Maker forums are more laid back, and thus so are the enforcement of the rules. Yes, I believe most people here are well-behaved, and that includes ryner. If I had to pick between you and him, I'd pick him a thousand times over. he only makes harsh comments to people who earn them, like yourself.

I do know whats best for the pavilion, I brought it back from the dead. the site is thriving now under my control, we have gained over 750 members in less than a year, agetec themselves have said that the pavilion has improved drastically, and they are perfectly happy with it as-is.

The moderator recruiting was not made to silence you, I do believe we need more moderators in the RPG Maker forums. I just never had any intention of letting YOU be one of them.

You pulled this same crap at the mag, throwing a hissy-fit because you only wanted ONE person to review your games, no one else. when ixzion told you that anyone who wants to review any game can do so, you demanded he take your games down from there too. you're acting like a damn child, and you think you're in any position to tell ME what to do? I've been with this community since day one. few people have put as much work as I have into the online RPG Maker community. who the are you to think you know better than me? what have you done? thrown temper tantrums about ryner, thats what. way to go.

Yeah, I'll happily remove your games from the pavilion, whenever I find the time to do so. I have no problem assisting you in making sure that no one new is ever able to find and play your creations. They were reviewed for the contest already, and while they are no longer able to win, their reviews will be posted whether you like it or not.

I knew this was coming ever since you sent me the following ultimatum (again, who the hell are you to give ME ultimatums?):

I didn't want it to come to this, but after what you said earlier, I feel I have no choice...

I ask that you seriously consider my suggestions and think about what I said, at least. By seriously consider by suggestions I mean approach them with an open-mind. For example, try to see things from the perspective of a new Pavilionite. There is no way that first post from Ryner was not a 'flame', even if you and 'everyone else' at the Pavilion knew that. It is this kind of thinking that has given the Pavilion a bad rep already. I'm only out to help the Pavilion and its members, so please respond to this maturely.

If you do not do what I asked, I request and demand that ALL of my games and demos be taken off the Pavilion. I can't allow myself to promote behavior like that of Ryner (and others), and if that means abandoning the Pavilion forever, so be it. That is all.
pathetic.

I would also like my account to be deleted
too bad.

[RPGD]

Frankly, I agree with Valkysas. You're a friggin' zealous, immature jackass who thinks he's everyone's boss. Your beliefs don't reflect everyone else's and you've broken nearly every rule you demand be reinforced with an iron fist. I have lost every ounce of respect I had for you. I am ashamed.

[Valkysas]

I'd like to point out that I was completely honest about getting new mods. I still am. however, about the enforcement of the rules...

I had no idea anyone thought there was a problem. it turns out that the people who had a problem with the way things are run here told everyone but the pavilion staff. that really doesnt help much. if there's a problem, no matter how small or large, or who it's with, post in this forum, or give me a PM. we'll look into it. we want to improve the pavilion in every way that it's possible to do so. but we need to know what needs to be improved.

and about his problems and complaints with ryner, the reason we arent so quick to toss out ban warnings when someone is being bothered by another member is because we have an "ignore user" feature. try it sometime.

if they're annoying you, ignore them. if they are clearly trying to harass you, flame you, or just plain out to get you, we'll get involved then. we dont want to ban anyone, or remove anyone from the community. it's always a last option, which is why we have the ignore feature, so we dont have to be quite as generous with bans as we used to at EZboard.

[Rodak]

I had no idea anyone thought there was a problem. it turns out that the people who had a problem with the way things are run here told everyone but the pavilion staff. that really doesnt help much. if there's a problem, no matter how small or large, or who it's with, post in this forum, or give me a PM. we'll look into it. we want to improve the pavilion in every way that it's possible to do so. but we need to know what needs to be improved.
I would like to start by saying I am sorry if you feel that I should have told you about what I feel is wrong with The Pavilion. I always thought it was just the atmosphere of the place and not worth mentioning because of the reactions when anyone says anything like this in a post (usually accusations of childishness and immaturity aimed at the person criticizing).

Anyway... The only thing I find wrong here is the attitude of many members. Too often people are abusive and callous, but never even get told to tone it down (publicly).

I can't think of examples because I ignore such things (not with your ignore user feature, but with my own mind).

I promise to point out the next few I see, just so you can know what I mean.

In general; it is like a swarm of insects. Any one is not a problem. Collectively it can be a problem.

Pointing to individual posts would be like pointing to one insect in said swarm. Pointless. As you said about the post to which William pointed. By itself it is innocuous. But as part of a larger trend it lends the Pavilion an atmosphere without which it would be a better place.

I can deal with it, no problem. I know Human Nature all too well. I grew up being abused by such people and learned that they are all unworthy of my attention long ago. I refuse to let them bother me.

But it does keep The Pavilion from being my personal favorite RPGMaker site.

This is hardly something about which you can do much of anything. I just attributed it to the statistical inevitability of a few jerks turning up in every large sample of people.

I hope that helps people understand a little of what this is all about.

Peace.

[RPGD]

To be completely honest, I feel the same way. Some people indeed tend to be nasty, and that tends to drag the Pavilion down a bit for me.

[Big Rick Cook]

How could it be possible to drag the Pavilion down when Optimus Prime is riding a rocket corn dog?

I don't think the nasty nancies are truly inhibiting the future of the Pavilion. Online, intellectual elitists (of which I am sadly party) are equivalent to high school bullies. School still goes on, and the nature of bullies doesn't inherently make the school a worse place. What it does is tortures a select few individuals that we net bullies deem unworthy, and those select few do drastic things like what Kirk here did. They act out in irrational ways and arbitrarily demand the banning or stripping of powers from the bullies that targeted them the most often or did the worst thing to them. Hacks and attacks are school shootings, if you please.

Staffmaster is a slightly different example; he demanded that Highwind be stripped of his admin status when Highwind edited his story topic, removing lewd comments about Fushigi Renamon when Rena asked to be left out.

Points aside, I don't feel one bit sorry when something I do contributes to or completely pushes along the removal of someone I don't like. I'm elitist and I don't like having useless cluttered jargon trashing up the Pavilion.

I lost myself somewhere in there. Everything Valk said, I basically agree with. Everything Rodak said, I don't stand by, because the tenets of your post are for a perfect world. Valkysas has personally and publicly given me instructions to stop doing some pervasive action because I was very near to or was breaking the rules. He's sent me one or two PMs on various subjects, and given a public decree in the CWS Discussion topic that flagrant abuse of flaming was to stop immediately. I can also say with certainty that he's on several occasions steered a topic back from a diversion of its original intent, sometimes the hijack I took an active part in. I've been around since 2000, and as far as I can tell, I don't get away with any more than anybody else.

Valkysas and others are in fact doing their jobs and doing them well. All I can say is loosen up to anyone who thinks otherwise.

[Biggie]

Unlike BRC, I stand by Rodak, not only because I consider Rodak a friend, but because if even you guys do get warnings, this disbehavior doesnt end. And when disbehavior like this

You're acting like a 10-year-old, I politely asked you to stop acting like a little punk in an attempt to help you stop acting like a 10-year-old. If my efforts to make you a better person fell on dead, punky, 10-year-old ears

is brushed off as a joke regularly, I dont really see the point in reporting. Valk has already showed some interest in helping fix this problem since he is going to hire more moderaters, so I am done posting about this subject. (I thought I was done at the domain.)

[Rodak]

To be completely honest, I feel the same way.
How else is there to be?


And You, Mister Cook, are an exception.

While I have not read all of your rants, the many I have seen differ from most others in one critical aspect: You do not just insult. You insult and tell why you are being insulting, and most importantly, you offer suggestions on how to improve the offending behaviour.

If you get just plain abusive after that, at least you tried.

Compare that to the behaviours you know I'm talking about.

And consider this; By merely acknowledging the existence of the problem by calling it utopian, you are agreeing with me.

I did say I felt it was easily ignored.

But we part ways when I say I also understand the reactions of those who feel it should stop.

It is utopian.

But that does not mean we should not all try our best to achieve it!

If we set our goals beyond what is possible, we will be more strongly driven to achieve the best.

Idealism is not a bad thing as long as you realize that we can only approach it, and never achieve it. The goal is to get as close as possible.

And Bigfoot, thanks for the support. We'll make a utopia of this whole freakin' planet if we keep it up (and everyone else joins in...)!

Peace.

[Big Rick Cook]

I'm a dreadful biased sort when it comes to utopianism. Most of my current poetry is all about how it can't work.

[Rodak]

I agree it can't work.

That is why it is even more important to strive for it.

Do three impossible things before breakfast every morning!

And you may be the only person on this site who will get the reference!

Peace.

[RPGD]

Rocket Corndog Optimus Prime is the Pavilion's saving grace.

[Big Rick Cook]

Didn't someone say that in Alice in Wonderland, Rodak? I can't remember; it's been literally a decade and more since I last saw it. As for "getting the reference," it's fallen on deaf ears. :(

[Rodak]

At the risk of going off topic...

It was The Queen of Hearts from Alice, yes.

And that was all I meant by getting the reference. Knowing where it originated.

AH-HA! I can spin this back on topic with literateness!

I know much of this starts with those who are... shall we say... Grammatically Incorrect.

A suggestion: Get a spell checker. Some even check grammar too.

I know I suggested this a long time ago and nothing happened.

So, directly asking our favorite Grammar Nazi, if that were available (and people actually used it) do you think it would help at all?

It is worth noting that other sites have them.

I know I would use it. I am dyslexic and have to tripple check everything I do anyhow! With one of those I'd only have to double check.

Just a thought.

Peace.

[Big Rick Cook]

Well, I'd like to think that the one we used to have worked quite well. The one that operated off of EZboard. But we still had problems with people who just didn't care enough about their personal correctness, and grammar check can really only go so far. Not to mention that spell checkers, while useful, are lazy tools that promote bad habits and fail to find misspellings that are still other words, like to, too, and two.

Yes, in effect, a lot of spelling errors could be fixed, but I'd still be *****ing and weeding out those who refuse to use it or those who just don't understand the written English language.

[Valkysas]

I would love to add a spell-checker, but it'd be a big drain on server resources. it would lead to a lot more of those database errors you see pop up from time to time, which never go away until I personally go in and fix them.

If I found a way to do it that wasnt so server-intensive, I'd add one right away.

[hitogoroshi]

Well, mabye it's just cause I'm still in the social mode of
high school, but I see no problems with the Pav. Whenever anyone seems to take the comment seriously, they applogize (take the incident with IRC and Key). I am perfectly fine with good-humored jests, so long as they are kept in check.

[Flatliner]

I am in complete agreement with Rick. Smart guy, that Rick... Smart guy.

[Ryner]

I'd like to point out that:

You're acting like a 10-year-old, I politely asked you to stop acting like a little punk in an attempt to help you stop acting like a 10-year-old. If my efforts to make you a better person fell on dead, punky, 10-year-old ears

This was not a joke. I was serious. I wasn't trying to be insulting though, I really was trying to make him realize he was acting like a douche.

[Valkysas]

I know that wasnt a joke, I know you were serious. it was good advice, which he ignored.

[dragaron]

In my opinion, neither Valkysas, nor WilliamKirk is right or wrong in this situation, so I am not out to build any allies or choose sides. I just see this as two different people with two different perceptions of right and wrong and them both having the desire to stand up for what they believe is right and wrong (which in itself isn't right or wrong). This is just my perception of the situation.

I think Valkysas has matured quite a bit actually, as a moderator. At one time a year or two ago, he was alot more rigid. Now he has become what I believe to be a very well-balanced moderator. I think he does a very good job of balancing discipline and grace. It's important for him as a disciplinary figure not to develop any biases toward any other members for any reason. I haven't noticed this to be a problem for him. I, being a Christian can honestly say he is one of the few Atheists I have met who have not tried to challenge my beliefs, or convert (in this case, unconvert) me to his way of thinking regarding religious beliefs. Granted, I show him the same respect.

This is just one example that I have seen from him that proves he tries to the best of his ability to not develop any biases. A while ago, Nash got all zealous on the Pavilion, so Valkysas stepped in and disciplined accordingly. I agree that Nash's behaviour was worthy of reprimendation. And eventually he was allowed back into the Pavilion, which again is a sign of Valkysas being balanced. To permantely ban Nash for such behaviour would be too drastic in my opinion, unless Nash would persistantly offend in such a manner repeatedly even after several warnings. I really like how Valkysas was willing to hear WilliamKirk out. Valkysas lost his cool after awhile though. In order to be perfect, a calm and firm response from Valkysas at the beginning of this thread would have been ideal.

Although, being in his position (as head moderator), I can understand why he reacted the way he did due to frustrations as a result of being (in his perception) wrongfully accused publicly. I personally like when matters like this are dealt with professionally and privately. From what I have seen, WilliamKirk has brought this into the public eye. Awhile ago, there was a lot more garbage on this site then there is now. There was innappropriate talk about pediphilia and whatnot. I was totally appalled by that, and was close to leaving the Pavilion myself. I was very happy to see most of the "mature" (or better defined as innappropriate for children) content moved into it's own section where you needed to request access into.

I have never and will never request access into such an area, as is my perogative. I really like how Valkysas is more graceful in that section as far as discipline goes. Being a moderator is an EXTREMELY hard job. I personally have a lot of grace for Valkysas because I can understand how much responsibility he has to deal with. Me being an Assistant Teacher (by profession), I also have to judge what I consider to be innappropriate/appropriate behaviour and discipline/praise accordingly in an effort to discourage/reinforce future behaviour of that same nature. Let me tell you, being in charge of others (disciplinarily) is a huge responsibility, and a very difficult job. As with anyone in a disciplinary position, it is important to respect the position even if you don't respect the person. I have had many bosses in previous jobs who have been total anus', and I have been very respectful to them as if they were respectful to me.

I understand that WilliamKirk felt (by his perception) that he was treated wrongfully. I would have liked to see him deal with this matter completely in privite and not so everyone else could see it. How he is speaking to Valkysas is a way one would talk to another person of equal power and position. Because Valkysas is a moderator though, I do think he should have been shown more respect. As an authority figure, he will and should be dominant over anyone who challenges his position and decisions as the head moderator. I am saying this for the benifit of everyone. If Valkysas position is respected, he will reciprocate that same respect to others (or atleast should if he is, which I percieve him to be, concerned with doing what is right and just).

I'm sorry to see you leave, WilliamKirk. I have enjoyed having you as a fellow member for the duration of your stay. I understand that you feel that you are not recieving the respect you feel is due to you. I also understand that you feel parting ways with the Pavilion is in your best interests. I respect your decision, go in peace.


EDIT BY HIGHWIND: I broke this into paragraphs so people can read it.

[hitogoroshi]

Well spoken. I am more on Valk's side, simply because he kept his cool far longer then Will and several times gave mature responses to immature things.

[Manyak]

I'm definately with Valk on this one.

I might have had more sympathy for WilliamKirk if he diddn't decide to drop a huge drama bomb and try to make Valk look bad.

That's just all kinds of lame and cowardly.

[KumoShinagi]

I'm sorry, Will. If you want to leave, that's your decision.
On the state of how to Pavilion is run, it's been running fine.
Valk has been doing a damn fine job so far, and I believe he's been more than patient with everyone that comes here.

I also believe he's the fairest person I've seen in quite some time.

So, to each his own.

[Valkysas]

I have a bad temper. thats obvious to anyone who has been here a while. I'm able to restrain myself more now that I used to be, but I still lose it sometimes and explode like I did in my first reply in this topic. I'm not perfect, I dont try to be.

I shouldnt have made my first post in here right away, I should have calmed down and tried to seperate my emotions from my post first. Thinking clearly under pressure is not my strong suit. I suck at it.

if william wants to come back, he's free to do so. his games are removed (they're dead links) and they wont go back up unless he wants them to.

[RPGD]

Still, he deserved a schooling.

[John Mora]

Ditto on booing William's drama bomb.

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah, no fault on you. Last time I remember you exploding was that idiot with the screen names in the chat room. I mean, sheesh, you're an Autobot, not a god.

[RPGD]

Actually, he's more of a Gundam.

[hitogoroshi]

My mistake. Won't happen again.

[Draygone]

I leave for two days and someone here tries to start a civil war. I must say, I wasn't sure whose side to take until I saw that first post in this topic. I don't recall seeing behavoir like that from Will, ever. But then, I have memory problems.

Anyway, I like the Pavilion pretty well. Offhand, there are only two problems I have with it:

ppl3 who lik to tipe lik this

and

Ryner. But I figure, if that guy's been here for this long without getting perma-banned, there must be some sort of redeeming quality going on.:)

[Ryner]

Ryner. But I figure, if that guy's been here for this long without getting perma-banned, there must be some sort of redeeming quality going on.

Whoa, careful with the off-topic personal attack. Some people might see them as fighting words.

[Draygone]

Nah, you're cool. I don't like how you respond to some people's posts, but it seems to me you're usually in the right.:)

[RPGD]

.... But you told me you were a southpaw.... Why, Dick, WHY?!? :(

[Ryner]

If you thought I was cool you wouldn't had said I accounted for 50% of what you dont like about the Pavilion :)

[Chuck]

I'm late to the discussion but I'll throw in my one and a half cents.

First and foremost, I really disliked how WK portrayed this as a problem he had with the rule enforcement and the overall state of the Pav when it was really about himself being insulted. And to assume the moderator request was done just to appease him is more than a little self-aggrandizing. And this Final Requests thread was more about eliciting sympathy/agreement and continuing to complain. If he really just wanted his games and account removed he would've PM'd Valk.

Second, Valk has been a great mod and head of the site. He does a lot to improve it and keep it improving. He loses his cool once in a while but (as far as I've seen) only when repeatedly provoked. He wields his power of bannination only when necessary and only as a last resort, as it should be. The goal of a moderator is to make things moderate, neither anarchic nor rigidly disciplined.

Lastly, some people on this site like to emphasize a point by wrapping it in insult. When the target takes offense it's often responded to with more insults with less of an underlying point. Sometimes it degrades to the point of flaming and sometimes the targeted person is just being too sensitive. I'm glad I'm not one of the people who has to decide which is which.

[highwind]

The lesson is: If you don't like being here - leave.

You come here voluntarily - you can leave voluntarily.

[Draygone]

If you thought I was cool you wouldn't had said I accounted for 50% of what you dont like about the Pavilion:)Well...I couldn't just list one thing I don't like about the Pavilion.

[Chuck]

If you thought I was cool you wouldn't had said I accounted for 50% of what you dont like about the Pavilion :)
You're 90% of what I don't like about the Pavilion and I still think you're cool.

*Not really just being facetious*

[Ryner]

THIS IS NOT THE BASH RYNER THREAD!

[WilliamKirk]

Thank you. Once I see that my account's deleted I'll stop coming.

[Ryner]

Guess you'll be here for awhile, bucko.

[Draygone]

:lol Oh great, look what I've started!

While I kinda like the new topic we've started to develop, I'd rather not be responsible for a flame war, so let's get back to the old topic at hand.

I don't think the Pavilion's too lenient. I've seen plenty of instances when someone is being a complete jerk-off and was swiftly punished.

As for the report bad post possible problem, I'm gonna give it a try myself to see what happens.

[dragaron]

I have a bad temper. thats obvious to anyone who has been here a while. I'm able to restrain myself more now that I used to be, but I still lose it sometimes and explode like I did in my first reply in this topic. I'm not perfect, I dont try to be.

I shouldnt have made my first post in here right away, I should have calmed down and tried to seperate my emotions from my post first. Thinking clearly under pressure is not my strong suit. I suck at it.

if william wants to come back, he's free to do so. his games are removed (they're dead links) and they wont go back up unless he wants them to.

You're a good man, Valkysas. You take responsibility for your actions and handle correction well. That's a sign of a true gentleman. It's my personal pleasure to have you as a moderator over me.

[Valkysas]

Thank you. Once I see that my account's deleted I'll stop coming.
as I stated before, I'm not deleting your account.

[highwind]

You're a good man, Valkysas. You take responsibility for your actions and handle correction well. That's a sign of a true gentleman. It's my personal pleasure to have you as a moderator over me.

You are a kind and gentle fellow.

[Big Rick Cook]

I refuse to allow Valkysas to run his tyrannical government over we, the Pavilionites.

He must be removed, forthwith and post-haste and a bunch of other words strung together to make me sound official and with knowledge.

[HolyPhoenix]

Sorry, I think I have gone against a few rules. I will read them again to remind my self what not to do.

William, it is not the pavilian's fault that people don't obey the rules. If you remain then you can remind people of the rules when they go against them. The more people who want the pavilian to become a better place that leave the more people that make it the place it is right now will take over posting. Then it will even get worse. I suggest you stay and try to help by reminding people and using the example of good posts to help make it a better website.

[Big Rick Cook]

Oh Jesus Christ. Was it not obvious enough that I was joking?

[HolyPhoenix]

Oh, sorry. It probably was, just this thread didn't seem like a joking matter.

[highwind]

NO SARCASM IS ALLOWED IN SITE INFO AND SUGGESTIONS.

[Big Rick Cook]

I demand that Highwind be stripped of his administrative powers, because he's obviously power-tripping.

[highwind]

NO DEMANDING IS ALLOWED IN SITE INFO AND SUGGESTIONS.

[RPG Learner]

I guess that explains everything.

[volcan]

MellowYellow (old pavilion name) reaches out his hand to others.

(others look at him funny.)

Finally someone grabs his han and looks at the others.

Now we all start holding hands and start singing the pavilion friendship song.

(Do we have a pavilion friendship song?)

He wrights one... yea!

Now we all sing together!

Sing!

(insert cricket sound effects)

>.>

<.<

Ok, I got it! Let's humm!

Everyone humms and love fills the air like old times!

=)

[Manyak]

what the christ

[Riotsword]

I second that "what the Christ".

[Red Dragon]

"What the duece!"

[Big Rick Cook]

Jesus Christ. Let the stupid topic die.

Or better yet, somebody should lock it.