What makes a good story?

[Sage of Creation]

I've been surfing around these here boards and I'm suddenly struck with a rather puzzling question. What makes for a good story line?

Now we all know that in order for most games to work they need a good storyline. If Final Fantasy didn't have a good storyline, I'm sure millions of rather peeved-off fans would have found their way to what was then Squaresoft's headquarters and shakin many a fists in anger if not shot a few people.
I've also heard that Xenosaga 2 has a craptacular story line that shouldn't have been presented to the public.

So my question is... What, in your opinion, makes a good storyline?
Lots of action? A good theme? Morals? Adventure?
Spill your guts on what a good storyline is and maybe the gaming gods will listen and have SquareEnix make us another blockbuster.

[Loki]

http://www.tearsofllorona.com/hero.html

[IRC]

in my opinion a good story has two qualities.

depth and epic.

However I think that character's supersecde story.

If you have good characters the story's importance is lessened

[SirTMagus]

Yes. The Lunar and Metal Gear Solid games are a great example of that. Memorable writing and colorful characters can go a long way.

And Joseph Campbell's thing just about sums everything else up. The greatest example of that - and the most stunning narrative I've yet to find in a game - is Vagrant Story, IMHO. A story that opens itself to interpretation is also fantastic.

Themes and morals and whatnot are great too. Final Fantasy X wouldn't have worked nearly as well without all those eerie shades of 9/11. Death, rememberance, love, religion, etc.

However, ICO's story was very barebones, told in an incredibly visual, SUBTLE way. It was jawdropping.

So I dunno what the formula for a good story is (though Campbell's cycle is certainly a fine model) but there are few examples there...

[Loki]

I think the Hero cycle works best for videogames, 'cause really what videogame isn't the story of a hero on a quest? Except for puzzles games, I can't think of any.

[SirTMagus]

Absolutely. (At this point in time) Snake from MGS3 fits that mold perfectly. RRRRRRGGHHH!!!! I love his story arc so much. :jack2

[Mistafopa]

alot of cynicism and a little sentiment.

[Draygone]

A story that opens itself to interpretation is also fantastic. Not to me. I like being told what's going on. Too much guessing invovled, and I... No, wait, I probably won't notice that I need to pay any extra attention to anything. *looks at FF8*

Now let's see here... Hmm, can't really say what I like to see in stories. The only way to do that is make one of my own.

[WingZero]

What I think makes is a good story is not just events that occur, but also the characters within the story. Without characters, the story is just a thought, a world with no one there. Without story, the characters have no reason to exist, especially since they are in a dark infinity, waiting to be placed into a world. So, story and characters intertwine. Now as to what makes a good story. Well, the story needs to have somewhat realistic goals and characters with some real human traits. The more believable and the more a story and the characters can relate to the players, the better it is. While make believe goals such as "Save the World" are always fun, they aren't so realistic and are better off for children between the ages of 7-12, a period of great psycological development, a time where the kid starts to differentiate between things and realizes what is fantasy and what is real, but they still believe they can do what the heroes in the game do. That's my answer, though kind of complex. I hope it's understandable.

[Big Rick Cook]

Characters make the story. Without good characters, a good story is like lemon meringue pie without the lemony goodness. Characters need depth, and personification, and individuality, and motive, and they need their own little quirks that make themselves apparent in the story. A lot of role-playing games falter on this step in that they make characters with flat characterization. They have one side to them, and one quirky quality that is emphasized to a sickeningly prevalent point. Motives are really important because otherwise, why do we care that this character is trying to kill a warlord? What does it matter if we save the princess if there's no reason for it. Zidane had it partially right. "You don't need a reason to help people," but it makes things more interesting when you do.

Another thing I really enjoy about a story is when they don't tell you everything. Unlike Draygone, to me, leaving some things to the imagination is kind of cool, and it creates this sort of reality to a story when you connect small but significant details in your mind and it isn't implicitly stated in the story. I have a hard time not explaining everything away to its full extent, and try my best to create these little punctuations of creative thought where you draw the conclusion or the point of reference yourself.

[IRC]

I think that an open to interpretation story is okay, but you have to do a good job of telling it. I hate FF8 because the story takes leaps and bounds and switches back and forth. If they kept the story from the first disc I would have loved it because it was would have been old school goodness.

But the story was still a good one, but I had to go to gamefaqs and check it out and read it to fully get it. Apparently the story only unfolds in the last minutes of the game, and what makes the story truely great, that small aspect that transforms it from blah blah blah to holy ****, is only in the game for five seconds.

When I went back and read about it, I think that from a pure story aspect FF8 has one of the best and most unique stories, but the fault of the game is that the story doesn't show itself in the actual game. It is only hinted at.

So while an interpretive story is cool, a story that is more or less straightforward, but with many twists and levels to it is even better.

[Big Rick Cook]

Yeah, I forgot to make that distinction. There's a certain level where you have to stop making the story interpretive and just go with telling what happens. Final Fantasy 8 overkilled its story overtones by only hinting at the most important revelations rather than revealing them.

I was mostly talking about the little things that you draw from the characters that doesn't contribute major understanding to the overall story, but makes the characters have more depth and believability.

[SirTMagus]

Interesting... this makes me wanna play FF8 again.

In that case, the best stories have a balance of those qualities. My favorite example, Vagrant Story, is basically a straightforward hero defeats villain story with all the twists and straightfowardness IRC mentioned. You can take it at face value and not think twice about it. But if you do (think twice) ,you are well -rewarded with a deep, rich tale.

The cinematic equivalent of that, I guess, would be a movie like Memento or The Matrix. You can just see those as twisty detective or sci-fi flicks but underneath, they got some deep emotional undertones that can rock the core of humanity.

This is a cool discussion.

[IRC]

I love character depth. I'll read a book just because it has good characters. It can be crap but if it has good characters I'll read it.

[Big Rick Cook]

Grandia II is the other side of stories that I really like. You've got a very basic, very predictable, very unoriginal story, and a couple of the characters are dumb (namely Ryudo's brother). But the story is told exceedingly well and despite it being a story that could be told and has been told a thousand different ways, I like to play it for the way the story is told and the dynamic the characters bring to it. I think what charms me to this game specifically is that the voice acting is actually effective by and large, and there are dinner table scenes where the characters really just react to each other in casual settings. You don't even have to view these scenes most of the time, but the characters become real in these endearing moments.

[SirTMagus]

Damn... another Dreamcast gem I've yet to play...

That reminds me of Metal Gear Solid 3's radio conversations. It's not terribly necessary to dial up the support team but which other way would you hear Sigint's glorious **** dream?

[Loki]

I thought that Grandia II's characters and plot were weak compared into Grandia I's.

[BIOHUNTERZ]

*gets teary eyed thinking of grandia*, man that game was just plain A W S O M E! To me grandiaI was one of the best story/adventures ever I have played. I will be forever jelious of serge for at anime expo 2000 he got the orginal designer for the chars to sketch him a justin head shot...SO UNREAL!

[Big Rick Cook]

I lost a 20 hour save file for Grandia, and haven't had the heart to pick it up again.

[Vonwert]

I second that!

I loved the whole adventure, going where ever the wind takes you type of story.

I really felt for the characters and really enjoyed the ending. :)

[Kefka Jr.]

I cried when Justin read the letter from his mom before getting on the boat.

[Caciss]

I need a copy of Grandia. :(

[IRC]

I need a copy of Grandia. :(

me too.

[Draygone]

Sounds interesting. Weren't Grandia I&II released on GameCube? I know a couple of Dreamcast RPGs were.

FF8 is kinda why I don't like having to figure out the little details on my own. Maybe if I found a game where I wouldn't have to figure things out to such an extreme, I'd like the idea better. Actually, I think Paper Mario 2 had a few things that were hinted at but not really important. Stuff like where Jolene hangs out and Ms Mowz's alter-ego. (Although that last one was told at the end of the game.) Little stuff like that, I like to figure out.

[Big Rick Cook]

Grandia II was ported to PS2, rather poorly.

The Evolution games were ported to Gamecube, as well as Skies of Arcadia.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

i gather from this (great discussion) that what maters in the game is varied from person to person becuase they find different things interesting and learn in different ways. while one person may love the detail of something, another may only like the surface layer. one person might enjoy a great indept charactor, while another may prefer the complexity of the charactors interaction. what seams to work is a culmilation of all these varing aspects, having each layer to satisfy the readers.

an indept story if you look deeper, a bit of hand pulling here and there at the more surface layer of the story, perhaps deep charactors and human traits but also a kind of super human quality. i guess its everything together, working as one, that makes a story a success or not.


beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and so it would seam that a good story is in the eye of the reader.