I hate logic.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

RPG World said it best. -

So suppose a band of adventurers comes along into your town. Nothing too special, right? I mean, there are plenty of adventurers out there fighting for cash (whether that cash comes straight from the beasts or after selling its hyde). Oh but wait, there's one of those beasts tagging along with these adventurers. You certainly don't see THAT everyday. It certainly would get a lot of attention, which is bad news if you didn't want to raise the suspicions of the town's guardsmen. Yet Cloud got away with having this super-rare beast tagging along.

Anyway, this is another problem I'm having right now. This one game idea I have in development, I'm throwing in way too much logic. Heck, I think I'm explaining somewhere in the game that adventurers are aloud to waltz into people's houses because it's proper to help adventurers like that (or maybe I tried doing that in another game). This sort of logic is essentially tearing my game apart, to where it's no longer a game but an alternate reality where things like animal party members just can't happen. I mean, isn't the idea of a game generally to defy logic and thrust you into an adventure you'll enjoy?

Well naturally, I know what to do. Make some illogical things in the game. I'd say my game ideas were better when I wasn't trying to explain everything. Which reminds me, in my Slayers' Reign demo, did anybody else wonder why nobody believed Mick about dragons being responsible for the invasion of the "dragonites", when everybody could plainly see that "dragonites" indeed have invaded all the non-populated areas, and are indeed somewhat of a threat to those who wander outside protected villages? I sure didn't when I came up with that idea, yet guess what I tried to do recently?

I know I can't have things happening in my game that are illogical beyond belief, but I've definately going to have to keep from going overboard with these explanations. I mean, my biggest plot twist was ruined because I tried to throw in logic! I tried to twist it in a different way, but it sucks now. So, I've got some things to do with my story before I move on.

[WilliamKirk]

Re: I hate logic.

The difference is whether it's realism for story/characters or realism for gameplay. For example, the example about random irrelevant townspeople not paying attention to a beast party member is fine is like that with very good reason - normal townspeople shouldn't say much (for say, asking the protagonist tons of questions about their journey, the beast party member, etc.). If anyone seriously complains about this aspect of the game, they aren't evaluating and analyzing the game, but rather inventing reasons for disliking the game. The same goes with the waltzing in and taking stuff - exploring towns would be too lame if no items were to be found, and players like getting free money/items. When it comes to gameplay, realism shouldn't be an issue - getting shot, cut, burned, frozen, electrocuted, etc. ten/twenty times before dying, taking turns to act, everyone having tons of magic, gaining money directly from monsters, so on and so on would ALL have to be changed.

Where it becomes a problem is when it's a component of the story such as a character acting without reason/motive or responding to something in an unbelievable manner.

[Alzar]

Re: I hate logic.

WilliamKirk hit the nail on the head.

Unrealistic gameplay things are almost never an issue. We play video games for this very reason, to experience things that aren't realistic.

HOWEVER, when characters act unrealisticially and stupid, the audience cannot relate with them, and that is the fastest way to lose an audience.

[Jamos' Old Account]

Re: I hate logic.

WilliamKirk hit the nail on the head.

Unrealistic gameplay things are almost never an issue. We play video games for this very reason, to experience things that aren't realistic.

HOWEVER, when characters act unrealisticially and stupid, the audience cannot relate with them, and that is the fastest way to lose an audience.

Amen! No one would want a world full of dumb asses (shudders.)

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: I hate logic.

I'm still trying to go for a fantasy world regardless, I'm just trying to make it too believable a fantasy world. ...If that makes sense. It just bugs me that what I used to think was a great story is now found to be full of plot holes and "why the heck did/n't this happen instead"s. It was so much easier when I didn't care. I'm not going to ever be finished with the darn thing until I'm completely satisfied with the story. Even if I do give logical explanations for things in-game, I'll figure out some way to still be fun. Like maybe have a party member "on the inside" showing an ID so that the party can enter town with said beast. Which would fit the story, actually, if I really were using a beast member.

[Shard]

Re: I hate logic.

I've had this same problem. The way I work around it is by asking myself what's logical for this world? You can't apply your twenty-first century psychology and reason to a fantasy world, it's better to follow what the peoples of your world would think, what history there might have been in their world's past for them to accept something that we'd consider abnormal. There's plenty of weird crap around that we all just blithely accept because it's become familiar. Look at a giraffe. If being an economist has taught me one thing, it's this: the laws of the model only have to be internally consistent, whether they have any application beyond the model or not is something you can argue but never disprove.

[MC Ardle84]

Re: I hate logic.

Draygone, now you know why I refuse to write RPGs with a very small cast of characters.

The only RPG I could see myself making right now would have to involve over 100 characters with giant army sub-battles in place.

Why?

There is no logic in 4 people saving the entire earth. Period. You'll have to live with it.

[WilliamKirk]

Re: I hate logic.

It may help to send a script of your story to someone and see what they think, being an outsider to your story/world/etc.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: I hate logic.

That's what I'm planning to do, actually. I just seem to have a little trouble getting the plans down on paper. You know, that whole "my game is memorized" deal. Plus the story is going through a bit of a redesign because of some "fluff" areas and characters I just don't like. (There's this one guy that was supposed to be 1000+ years old and is supposed to be guarding a secret valley. Even though he's nowhere near the valley. I had a reason for such, but I'm not thrilled with it at this point. This same guy was also supposed to be one of the main party members, but his importance to the story ended after the valley.)

There is no logic in 4 people saving the entire earth.

Ah yes, I've raised the question of why a small group of people are saving the world myself. Of course, lucky for me, none of my games really need that question asked. The world either doesn't need saved, or not enough people know what the heck's going on in the first place.

it's better to follow what the peoples of your world would think, what history there might have been in their world's past for them to accept something that we'd consider abnormal.

Actually, that's what I've been doing. It's just that if something doesn't make sense, skrew that, I'm gonna make it make sense, according to the game's world. Like for example, there's some nice technology (vehicles and generators) in my world right alongside some not-so-advanced stuff. The reason? The recent appearance of beasts (starting 30 years before the game's present) has put a damper on the world's advancements. And while guns were invented, they were quickly forbidden because of how much more powerful they were than most other weapons. Sure they could be used to destroy the beasts, but what's to stop someone from using one to instant-kill a person?

[Alutra]

Re: I hate logic.

Also, there is always a little room for mystery. Letting the player wonder a
little here and there can be positive. ( If unfolded properly) It helps build excitement, and lets them interact with the story in their head, even if a detail is never properly explained. I know what you mean... I too find myself trying to answer silly questions like,"where do dragons come from?". Hmm, they come from the gods...Well, "where do the gods come from?". (sigh). then no matter what you've explained, you always have to explain something else.
But a good story gives room for the player to do some imagining of their own.

[marcus]

Re: I hate logic.

Small groups are actually realistic in this sense when it comes to saving world. Lord of the Rings anyone? It was a Fellowship of 9 (although that didn't last long) and even though they had the help of a few armies of people, it was still TWO people that potentially stopped the world from going to hell.

Small groups are efficient and ideal especially when it comes to military tactics. When you need someone assassinated or documents stolen, do you send in the entire military? No, you send in the Navy Seals which is usually comprised of only 6-9 team members. If you send in an entire force you'll garner too much attention. It may not sound realistic, but a group of 4-6 highly trained individuals is 10x more efficient than an army of 100 people who have no idea what the hell is going on.

As far as logic goes, I just make it seem like an ordinary thing. The romans had an open door policy, so do the people in my world (granted people don't keep treasure chests in their houses so there's nothing to steal). Either way, don't bog the player down with useless information; just tell them what they need to know and they'll figure out the rest.

[Rodak]

Re: I hate logic.

"Logic is a reef of pretty flowers... That smell terrible!"

I'll let the Star Trek Geeks out there tell you which episode Spock said that in... (It was the one with Harry Mudd and those robots).

Anyway...

The problem is not with Logic, but with appearances or realism.

Logical just means self consistent.

I hate realism. Keep it as outrageous as possible.

At all times.

Or not.

That's just how I do things and think about my play time.

But Logic is an old friend of mine. I tutored both Logic and Advanced Logic in College, so watch how you talk about my friends!

Thems fightin' woids!!

Grunt!

Moo!

Belch!!

Bark!

Cough, Cough...

Ahhh... nevermind...

I'm getting too old for that stuff.

I'm over it anyway.

Logic told me he's not offended and you can hate him if you want. He's used to it.

Peace.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: I hate logic.

Also, there is always a little room for mystery. Letting the player wonder a
little here and there can be positive. ( If unfolded properly) It helps build excitement, and lets them interact with the story in their head, even if a detail is never properly explained. I know what you mean... I too find myself trying to answer silly questions like,"where do dragons come from?". Hmm, they come from the gods...Well, "where do the gods come from?". (sigh). then no matter what you've explained, you always have to explain something else.

Well, I wouldn't go near as far as trying to explain "where do dragons come from", even though they are a very important element to my game. I just like explaining stuff, for some reason. Gives a little extra detail to the world, that I like to see in some games. Like in FF9, they went so far as to tell when the theater ship was made. I doubt anybody really wondered that, but I like that they did that nonetheless. As for mysteries, I have those here and there in my game, but I don't want to leave them unsolved. Like maybe a monster in the game acts in an unusual way. Eventually I'll tell why, but at least before then I'll have caught the player's interest, wondering what just happened.

Either way, don't bog the player down with useless information; just tell them what they need to know and they'll figure out the rest.

Well, I have a tendancy of overexplaining things. I won't try to explain unimportant things in the main story, of course. Those type of things will probably be mentioned, as I said, by a random townsperson or in a book. Because, there's gotta be something in those bookshelves.

Hmm, yes, I can definately see that being a good reason to get a second opinion from someone else, though.

[MC Ardle84]

Re: I hate logic.

I don't see how giving your world a backstory would be "useless." It's something 99.95% of all RPGs lack.

Hell, give me a family tree if it ties in, the more information about someone or something in the world--usually the better. (Unless you accidently give away plot twists...)

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: I hate logic.

It has occurred to me, that I'm making way to big a deal with this. It has been so long since I bothered with any plans for gameplay, that I forgot that no matter how I try to tell my story, it would still feel like a game. As opposed to some big story that you take part in every now and then. Glad I decided to try out my old Slayers' Reign demo. The story was flawed, but it still tried to tell a good one, yet there was something still fun about exploring the levels, opening the plentiful treasure chests, that I don't see in many games today. I dunno, hard to explain. Just know that I have a revived hope in how Slayers' Reing will eventually turn out. If I'm gonna use logic and detail, then I'm gonna do it in the best way I can.