Really really stupid state legislature

[Sivart the Sloth Trencher]

Seriously?

Look, I know that getting rid of the deficit is an important thing and all but... how does it make any sense to pull the money out of public services? All the teachers in my school are ****** because it's going to really hurt their salaries. My pre-cal teacher and I went over the math and he's potentially going to be losing $18,000 a year. The whole thing's ugly and it makes my stomach turn.

If you pull money out of educator's salaries then teacher's will be less likely to work as teachers. With a shortage on educators less people graduate. With less people graduating less people are moving on to college... which, of course, really ****s things up.

The same thing's going on in Wisconsin and there's some hardcore protesting going on now. My sister's an elementary school teacher and she's also pretty upset; I'm pretty sure their district is going on strike.

Anyone else been paying attention to this? Madison's governor's trying to rush this thing as an executive order.

...God, I hate this.

[Stormy]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

Yeah, I live in Wisconsin and there is some serious rage going on in the faculty at my university.

Walker be crazy and I am shocked, shocked that a lunatic like that was elected into office.

[Hrafn]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

I was all concerned an injustice was being done until I clicked the link. Glad to see it wasn't the case at all.

If your teacher is potentially losing $18k, he's either lying out his ass or severely overpaid. Or both.

[Stormy]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

Governor Walker is banning unions for state workers in Wisconsin and threatening to use the National Guard to stop any protesting. I'd call that an injustice (or I would if he could actually do that...)

[Sivart the Sloth Trencher]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

He's not lying. The proposed legislature will significantly cut down on the public service budget. Teacher's will be paid similar to those in sales with a kind of commission. They receive a drastically-reduced base salary and then the rest of their pay is based on "merit." If that has anything to do with how well the students perform in class, it's seriously screwed up. There are some kids who just don't give a damn about school.

An entire school of teachers and many other teachers in the offending states wouldn't all be lying.

[Mcardy]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

Republicans hate government paid education, is there really any argument to be made about that?


(...aside from "private schools" would do better. VOTE RON PAUL 2012)

[Sampson]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

Unions are an integral part of the free market. I never understood the union hate, they're the only way to protect labor.

However, unions have no place in the public sector. The same rules simply don't apply, as the public sector is by nature a monopoly financed coercively. So, I fully support eliminating teacher's unions.

The problem with our education system has nothing to do with a lack of funding, and teachers are by no means underpaid. Granted, most of the money wasted on public education is probably blown on the ridiculously overinflated salaries of administrators, but I don't know how anyone can pity some calc teacher who probably makes $70k+ a year with every holiday off, three months of summer vacation, a week long spring break, a week at Christmas, no chance of losing his job and having a fat pension and benefits to look forward to in retirement (and probably retiring early and collecting a $30k buyout to do so) getting his salary cut to $50k. Especially when so many people in the private sector are out of work and can't find jobs.

Teacher's will be paid similar to those in sales with a kind of commission. They receive a drastically-reduced base salary and then the rest of their pay is based on "merit." If that has anything to do with how well the students perform in class, it's seriously screwed up. There are some kids who just don't give a damn about school.

It dawned on me when I was about 12 that this would be a great idea. How many worthless teachers did you have? I had so many that were just there to collect a paycheck. They would give away half the answers or let kids check their own work just so that they didn't have to look bad if everyone failed the class because they did no teaching at all. Of course, I had other teachers that were absolutely amazing. Could make any subject interesting and easy to digest. I always believed that these later teachers deserved six figures, while the former deserved to be out of a job. But no, they were paid the same. Doesn't make sense.

I get that judging teachers based purely on test scores and whatnot is an imperfect concept, but something should be done. If you're a car salesman and you don't sell any cars this month, you're probably going to struggle to pay the rent and you might lose your job. Not that its your fault--maybe no one came into the dealership that was really interested in buying a car from you. But it doesn't matter, that's just how it goes.

(...aside from "private schools" would do better. VOTE RON PAUL 2012)

If he was actually on the ballot (which he won't be) why wouldn't you? Regardless of your political ideology, he'd be the first president in over 50 years that wasn't a complete corporate controlled zombie.

[Sivart the Sloth Trencher]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

I have never had a single teacher I considered worthless and I can't think of any teacher at my school who makes nearly that much ($70k). The district's a pretty poor district to begin with. Half the kids who attend live in the nearby trailer parks.

[Hrafn]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

I want to know what that 'drastically reduced salary' will actually be before I get to boo-hooing.

I'm anti-union in general, and anti-teachers' union in particular. I think unions were an absolutely vital part of our country...last century. Now they're a major contributor to jobs heading overseas and too much of a political organism to be considered benevolent.

However, I've heard rumblings about the merit-based pay for teachers, and that is utter crap. I can assure you if that becomes a nationwide thing instead of just a few isolated states, the public education system will take a nose dive. In Georgia we already have a big problem with students getting a B average they didn't really earn so they can qualify for the Hope Scholarship (whereupon they usually flunk out of college, because the brutal truth is that they were just too stupid to go). Make the teachers' actual pay based on their grades and dishonesty will be the order of the day. If you're a teacher, what makes more sense: continuing to pound your head against the wall of student ignorance, ultimately failing with several of them and having your check reflect that, or simply allowing them to cheat?

I have never had a single teacher I considered worthless and I can't think of any teacher at my school who makes nearly that much ($70k). The district's a pretty poor district to begin with. Half the kids who attend live in the nearby trailer parks.

Really? Not one? Were you homeschooled? I can think of several teachers I had who were lazy, unmotivated, idiotic, abusive, or in a couple cases carted away in cuffs either while I was there or sometime later. I know my senior year history teacher got busted for doing dirty online chats with 15 year old girls while on the school computer.

[Red Dragon]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

If he was actually on the ballot (which he won't be) why wouldn't you? Regardless of your political ideology, he'd be the first president in over 50 years that wasn't a complete corporate controlled zombie.

Uh,

No.

[orius]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

I'm not overly fond of public sector unions either. When they go on strike they hold up vital services everyone else is depending on, and most of the time it's for pay and benefits that are more generous than anyone in the working class makes. Either the officals cave into their demands which result in higher taxes and/or more of the budget being spent on the union's demands, or the union tends to take them to court over the issues which sees tax money spent on arbitration. Unlike the private sector, where a company will just close up shop entirely if union demands get too expensive, unionized government workers are in little danger of losing their jobs. And how many of you here have ever actually seen the average government worker show any ambition or initiative in their jobs?

As for teachers, I think the entire education system needs a massive overhall from preschool all the way through higher education. The entire system is still largely based on the needs of the early 20th century. All these proposals from the left and right, they're like the equivalent of putting a Band-aid on a gaping chest wound. I don't think it's going to really happen though, because the teacher's unions want to maintain the status quo when they're not getting paid more or demanding full health benefits that just about no American worker gets any more. And they're not the only obstacle to reform, there are parents who don't really get involved, there's an inner city culture that looks down on education, there are small towns who think schooling's only purpose is to support the local football team, and there are the people who think the Bible is the only textbook that should be used in a classroom. Give the teacher unions everything they want or bust them up entirely, it makes little difference, because those other problems will still be a problem.

[Denmo]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

I don't care about the specifics, when someone cuts public education, it's generally a bad idea.

[Shard]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

I'm not overly fond of public sector unions either. When they go on strike they hold up vital services everyone else is depending on, and most of the time it's for pay and benefits that are more generous than anyone in the working class makes.

Hi. I'm in SEIU, which covers the bulk of the state of California's unionized labor force. It's written into our contracts that we can't strike. We've had several studies performed by independent (read: private, not state agencies) firms that show we're chronically underpaid by 33% or more compared to our private counterparts, and yes, this includes benefits.

Either the officals cave into their demands which result in higher taxes and/or more of the budget being spent on the union's demands, or the union tends to take them to court over the issues which sees tax money spent on arbitration.

On the contrary, even in "liberal" California, taxes are a no-go, and "cut spending" rhetoric still plays well to political bases, despite the fact that our state has the second least govt. employee to population ratio in the country. Our contracts contain clauses that say the terms of this contract hold true until a new contract is signed, the govt routinely ignores those terms and institutes "emergency" furloughs and pay cuts. You're saying we shouldn't expect our employer to uphold his end of the contract?

Unlike the private sector, where a company will just close up shop entirely if union demands get too expensive, unionized government workers are in little danger of losing their jobs.

Job security is about the only perk of govt work. However, govt workers tend to be driven out by hostile policies and wages that are depressed long after the economy has swung around in the positive direction. Generally what you find is that capable and young state workers will move to private industry where they get paid more, and capable and aging workers will just retire rather than putting up with more bull****.

And how many of you here have ever actually seen the average government worker show any ambition or initiative in their jobs?

Hey. **** you. I work at an agency staffed by people with advanced degrees that genuinely care about the work they do... environmental restoration, open-space preservation, building trails, safeguarding wildlife habitat, renovating harbor districts, and eliminating invasive species. What do you do that's so goddamn important?

[IamPinhead]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

Hey. **** you. I work at an agency staffed by people with advanced degrees that genuinely care about the work they do... environmental restoration, open-space preservation, building trails, safeguarding wildlife habitat, renovating harbor districts, and eliminating invasive species. What do you do that's so goddamn important?

HEY. NO. I'm the one who takes the questioning of my logic personally. You don't get to have my job.

[altoecko]

Re: Really really stupid state legislature

Recent development: http://www.newser.com/article/d9lemt...tensifies.html

All the Democrats in the State Congress boycotted the meetings today so that no vote could be heard. Hear hear!