Money, Who Needs It?

[Eso Teric]

So, this is a thread to discuss thoughts and opinions on a workable monetary-less system, and so another thread doesn't get more off topic.

I think it's perfectly feasible, we have the resources, and the technology to house and feed everyone on Earth, we just don't.

I imagine a world where we use our advanced tech to automate things like burger-joints, and freely educate people to do more productive things, even it's just to make sure the burger stores are running right. Everyone could be provided for, most things that are just 'wants' are electronic items that are almost free now anyway.

[Valkysas]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

if you attach any value to anything, even personal, emotional value, you have the start of a monetary system. throw in trading one thing for another, and there we go. money.

the only other way is to force one group of people to do everything for another, where there would be no reason to trade, because if you want something, you just force someone else to make or provide it.

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

All we would need to do to make the country more lazy and obese then would to legalize pot and make that free too. Free food AND weed....who could beat that? That'd be awesome!

[Eso Teric]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

I'm gonna quote some ideas:

money has grown beyond it's initial function and has become almost a means to itself and it is integral to capitalism and has co-opted the language and even the very thought processes of how we view things and our whole culture.

a means of introducing scarcity and be part of the mechanism that enables hoarding of resources or at least allocation to resources to a few individuals and therefore was inherently un-democratic in it's effects.

it is impossible to determine it's monetary value, because it is so difficult to factor in the contributions of all the different people involved in the production of any good or product, as you have to take account of not just the labor, but the education, the science, the housing for the workers, costs to the environment, the equipment, the makers of it, and indeed the aggregate effects of many other factors in society.

two basic elements to be considered, physical objects and information. It is already abundantly clear that all information can basically be made free, since distribution costs are now almost nil and it can be reproduced indefinitely.

Nevertheless agreeing to share and allocate resources is still better than through the mechanism of who can afford it.

In terms of how a moneyless society might be reached, it seemed to be agreed it would be best to encourage various types of free or moneyless systems so as people would become familiar with the idea. Thus the continuation of free-software and music were some examples and also the recent setup of email lists know as FreeCycle (www.freecycle.org ) where people offer goods for free to be given away that they no longer wanted and that these had become very popular.

Other examples of existing systems given were libraries and how well they work and indeed much of our infrastructure, like pavements. These are free and nobody charges for them. (Yet!) And this was another issue that capitalists tend to use to oppose the idea of the moneyless society, that people would just consume to the maximum. Existing experience with libraries shows that people do not do this and don't borrow the maximum of books every time and they are more than just singular consuming individuals but are well, human. Likewise on fixed fare bus routes, they don't decide to go the extra bus stops to get their value for money. Even in, all-you-can-eat places, people generally do not gorge themselves every time.

So encouraging things like free city bus services, keeping our services free, like water and generally things that are part of our culture and used by everyone are good ways to proceed. Because money makes us see think in terms of personal income or wealth, we tend to ignore our culture wealth. And yet it is culture that is part of the essence of being human.

The dead end of our current money society is the major obstacle to advancing humanity to the next level in it's maturity and the blossming of our human potential.

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

We've lived in a world that, throughout most of our existence has revolved around some kind of money-system in large civilizations. Who would be motivated to work if there was no incentive to? Even tribesman of the Cherokee natives in my blood had to do some form of trade, and had to work (that is, hunt) to survive in their livelihood. My point, I don't really understand what you are getting at. Sure... I guess anything could work if society put their mind to it... but will people do it? No.

[Eso Teric]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

We've lived in a world that, throughout most of our existence has revolved around some kind of money-system in large civilizations. Who would be motivated to work if there was no incentive to? Even tribesman of the Cherokee natives in my blood had to do some form of trade, and had to work (that is, hunt) to survive in their livelihood. My point, I don't really understand what you are getting at. Sure... I guess anything could work if society put their mind to it... but will people do it? No.

You are just being close-minded.

I know of HUNDREDS just myself, of hundreds of elderly that don't needs jobs, are retired, and GET JOBS. Because they are bored, they like contributing, or for whatever reason.

You just aren't even trying to entertain the idea.

People used to say democracy wouldn't work. Hell, people still say it won't work being enforced in certain places like Africa.

[Red Dragon]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

If Star Trek can do it why can't we?

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

You are just being close-minded.

No, I am being realistic. Ignorance is not even considering the idea. Hence where I said "I don't get it"...which is kind of an invitation for you to explain it further.

I know of HUNDREDS just myself, of hundreds of elderly that don't needs jobs, are retired, and GET JOBS. Because they are bored, they like contributing, or for whatever reason.

I know some of them as well, and they (the ones I know of) don't need jobs because they tend to have some sort of financial stability in their lives...via Social Security, Veteran's Affairs or are taken care of by other means.

You just aren't even trying to entertain the idea.

Of course, I did. Which is why I would like for you to explain this idea, instead of just calling me ignorant.

[Eso Teric]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

I know some of them as well, and they (the ones I know of) don't need jobs because they tend to have some sort of financial stability in their lives...via Social Security, Veteran's Affairs or are taken care of by other means.

So when people in present day are provided for, and still work, you get it? I don't understand how you immediately equate 'everyone being provided for' with 'no one working'. So I don't really know how to explain what should be common sense.

People don't only get out of bed for a dollar bill. People work to provide, for themselves, their family, their community, their species.

If it's common knowledge that you come to, say, America, you will be given a house, and provided food, like everyone else there, and can pick anything you are interested in to be educated on, trained in, and put to work doing, you wouldn't go there?

[Dallas Alvis II]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

Yes...key emphasis on financial stability.

But to put some spin on that last bit on getting out of bed...

Or...they do it for control, ambition, and power. Humanity is selfish; greedy and think inward, only of themselves. In order for a no-money system to work; mankind would have to be able to have some other kind of mutual objective, a common understanding to gain for other people to benefit themselves, and a certain unshaking verity within their own given associations. But, that's what I think...

[Eso Teric]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

Yes...key emphasis on financial stability.

But to put some spin on that last bit on getting out of bed...

Or...they do it for control, ambition, and power. Humanity is selfish; greedy and think inward, only of themselves. In order for a no-money system to work; mankind would have to be able to have some other kind of mutual objective, a common understanding to gain for other people to benefit themselves, and a certain unshaking verity within their own given associations. But, that's what I think...

They are provided for, by everyone, that's what taxes into social programs are, so what I'm proposing is hardly far fetched.

We have a mutual objective, the only one we've ever had and always fought for, life and freedom. We have a common understanding that we are taxed for the gain of other people. We all have our own verity. There was religion. There was nationalism. I'm only hoping that eventually the short-sighted nationalism gives way to a sort of internationalism for the common good of humans, and the Earth.

If we are the pinnacle of evolution or what-not, then I don't see how we can't work together and stop the petty infighting, and repression of intellectual and technological advancement for the sake of one person somewhere hoarding everything for himself.

[DarkwingChuck]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

Eso, aren't you just basically talking about socialism? It hasn't worked too well so far and I doubt it ever will. Not that capitalism works any better.

Usually it comes down to two things: how well the system works for the ones in power. If they're happy with it they keep it going, if they're not it falls apart. The other side is just how badly it effects the people getting the short end of the stick, if their lives are still servicable enough they don't fight the status quo but if it gets bad enough they revolt.

A world without greed is as impossible as a world without war. The only way to manage it would be the eliminate every person that didn't conform to it or somehow remove free will altogether.

[Eso Teric]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

You thinking that a world without war is impossible makes me a sad panda.

[DarkwingChuck]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

It makes me sad too but it's true nonetheless.

[Eso Teric]

Re: Money, Who Needs It?

It makes me sad too but it's true nonetheless.

It's not true. Is the sad thing. That you think it's true. The moment there is peace, you will be wrong, how can you say something is truth?