The Definition of a Cliche

[AviasNelan]

Let me start of by saying, I want to be original. I want something that is meaningful, insightful, and makes a person really think about what is going on in any given situation. I am not talking about anything philisophical in nature, just something worth banging around inside your brain. I know most RPG's tend to deal with a force, evil, or unavoidable disaster that threatens the world. Sure, I want that in mine, but is it cliche? Is it unoriginal? I don't know. What appeals to everyone here? Is that something you would write off instantly, or is it something that brings you in? I ask because I don't just want to make a game that I will like, but that everyone would find at least worthy of their time...

Sorry for the rant,

Avias

[Big Rick Cook]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

I think that if you spend too much time worrying about whether your idea is original enough, or so cliche that it will make people turn away in disgust, that you'll lose sight of what you're trying to do. With a novel, you aren't trying first and foremost to make an original piece. You're trying to tell a story. With a game, the story - no matter how great it is - must take a backseat to the gameplay. If you don't have a game that's fun to play, or challenging, no one will work to beat your game just to find out the story.

Stories are important to the way a game remembers itself in your mind. You don't always remember the gameplay or the thousands of mundane battles, but if the story is really good, regardless of whether it's cliche or completely original, you'll herald that as one of your favorites. I like to use Grandia II as my example of a game that has the most cliche story you can imagine, yet is told so well that you don't mind it being cliche. I love the characters of Grandia II more than any other game.

Now, if the battle system of Grandia was terrible, people wouldn't care about the story. The battle system was fun and engaging, and that's the key selling point for most everybody.

I think what I'm getting at here is that you have to have a story worth telling, with characters that you can have feelings about. You also have to have a game that's fun to play. If you can manage both of these, you'll have a masterpiece. It doesn't matter if your ideas are unoriginal if you can put your own spin on them and make them seem fresh and new.

[AviasNelan]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Thank you Mr. Cook. I understand what you are saying now. I should build my story around the gameplay, not the other way around. I have another question. Is there some kind of system, procedure, or path that I need to follow in order to have a well organized game? What are some examples of ways to go about it. Sorry if you have heard all these questions before, but as you can seen I am very noobish.

Thanks again,

Avias

[Hedrum]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

I don't know. You'll have to figure that out on your own my friend.

[thetruecoolness]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Well that depends on what you mean by well organized game. If you mean in terms of figuring it out how to use RPG Maker 2, take a look at Dungeon Warden's FAQ here and look through the variables, and flags, and then pour through the premade scripts and figure out what they do and where they are used.

If you mean in terms of story, start out with what you really want to be in your story, and then basically connect the dots for those points and put them in order then go into the details. You can do it bottom-up details-general stuff, but most people find it easier to make a top-down story staring off with some general points and then getting more specific. A good site to look at is gamedev for how to design. Though it also has a lot of programming references there are a lot of good articles on how to design games, without being specific to any language or game creation tool. So search around there for some inspiration. Of course there are also some tutorials on this site for how to write RPG's check them out too.

Then once you know what you want to do for your story, ask questions here about how to script them. And as Big Rich Cook says writing it down in word or notepad, or even paper is a good idea. Some caution against writing down too soon just to give the idea a chance to blossom in your head but that's up to you.

[Big Rick Cook]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

When it comes to actually organizing and making games, I know absolutely nothing. I have not the patience to sit and script things in an RPG Maker for hours and hours to come up with half an hour's worth of workable material.

I like to think that transferring mediums is a good way to get organized. If you have a concrete idea, you should get everything written down. Get a notebook and start writing out your plans. Make a short story of it, if you want. I don't know the best way to get organized, because I'm not that kind of worker, but it seems to me that if you try to work out of your head, you'll constantly be losing things. If you scribe everything that you think might be important to the game, you'll have pages full of things to work from.

Other than that, there are some other people around that can offer much better game-making advice than I could ever hope to impart. I find I give the best advice when it comes to writing rather than gaming.

[KingSpoom]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

I seem to remember someone making some sort of guide to help people. If only I could find out where. Oh wait.

Do you have any specific ideas you really want to include?

[AviasNelan]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Would it be wise to buy RPG maker 2 and practice on it? I want to make it on 3 when it comes out but I have to wait until August for that it seems. I tried 2 out when it was first released and was overwhelmed by the scripting involved. I know that I can learn it, but was wondering if it would help my RPG maker 3 game if I had that to learn from.


From the annoying newbie,

Avias

[thetruecoolness]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

If you were to buy one now, RPGM1 would help you transition to 3 more easily. This is what I've heard, and from looking at the reviews for 3 seems to be the case. But I think you should just write down your story now, and then wait for 3 to come out. I forgot you're not planning on making one for 2.

[WilliamKirk]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Actually, the gameplay should be a result of the story in the long run. I always use Final Fantasy Tactics as my example; if FFT had a normal battle system and dungeons like the mainstream FFs it would be impossibly long. They would have at least 55 places to make, from Mandalia Plains and Sweegy Woods all the way to Bethla Garrison and Limberry Castle; in the end the game would never be completed, or the gameplay would get stale by the end because of typical dungeon after typical dungeon. I'd recommend getting an outline of the story and sequence of events (player goes here because ___, ___ happens, player then goes here because ___), and as you make progress on that think about what the gameplay should be like (battle system, optional stuff, etc.).

Most people will agree that in the end it's better to have a game with okay gameplay and okay story than one with good gameplay and bad story or bad story and good gameplay.

Alas, here's a compilation of good info over the last year for how to start:

http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/...read.php?t=581

Good luck on getting through all of it. In case it doesn't mention it in there, in the end make the game how you want to and you'll get a better result (put your wants over others').

[Ryner]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Buying RPG Maker 2 to practice for RPG Maker 3 is like riding a rabid tiger to practice driving.

As for cliches, avoid the Princess who gets tired of being royalty and joins the party as a white mage. Avoid the heroes having to collect multiple artifacts that are the key to defeating the bad guy. Avoid the main bad guy being related to anyone.

I also suggest avoiding romantic interests all together. While they're not overly cliche, most people here probably lack the writing skills needed to make a side story about love and not make it suck.

Most people will agree that in the end it's better to have a game with okay gameplay and okay story than one with good gameplay and bad story or bad story and good gameplay.

Yeah, no s---. Except an ok game with an ok story isn't good enough. You should demand perfection from your creation and yourself. Naturally, you're going to think your game is better than it is, but if you think your story is only ok and your gameplay the same, you might as well delete your files, as I can garuntee your game is terrible.

[ErikaFuzzbottom]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Okay, here's what I think. Create the story the way you want it. If you want the world to be saved, or if the 4 Pieces of the Ancient Zynth are the keys to opening the portal to the Krynson Realm where the secret to defeating your brother villain can be found, that's fine by me. Don't try to create a story that others might like. If you're not interested in the story you're creating, then the story will ultimately suffer. It's much easier to create a story that you like, and make it good, even if it does have every cliche imaginable.

The only thing you really have to worry about is the gameplay. You don't have to do anything super fancy, but try to make it fun. When you're testplaying your game, try to imagine the game as a commercial game as you're playing it. With the RPGMs' limits in consideration of course. If you're not having that much fun playing the game, then rework the gameplay until it is fun. Make it as fun as you possibly can. Nobody wants to play a game where every enemy takes 20 hits to defeat, and I'm sure nobody would really want to create a game like that, either.

[Big Rick Cook]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Naturally, you're going to think your game is better than it is,

On the contrary, I tend to be the most critical of my own writing. I have a dastardly hard time getting pages written because I'm hard-pressed to be satisfied with what I've already written. First drafts are recommended for most people, but I can't do them. My first draft is usually pretty close to whatever the end result will be, because I don't move on until I'm satisfied with a paragraph.

It may be weird and unorthodox, but it seems to work for me.

[RPGD]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

Just about everything mentioned are great ways to get going, but the most important thing is that you should do what you feel is right and try not to let others' impressions affect the result too much. No matter how hard you work on a game, even if it's good, there will always be people who will dislike it for one reason or another (even for retarded reasons). Everyone has different tastes; Not everyone on the planet can like the same thing. So, it's important to ensure that you are happy with the result. It's your game, after all.

[Alzar]

Re: The Definition of a Cliche

I would also recommend not touching RPG Maker 2 and waiting for RPG Maker 3, because other than 6-7 people in the world, everyone thinks RPG Maker 2 is a piece of crap.