How far can RPGM1 Scripting be stretched?

[Theskippingman]

I am aware of the fact that RPG Maker 1's simplistic graphics (compounded by very real memory issues) and limited scripting system (which lacks even variables) can make it very hard for users to make the program do all kinds of fun stuff. I heard that one way to get around the lack of variables without using up precious switches is to use invisible items or something, but how does this work? Is it possible to use RPG Maker, with enough time and effort, to create any of the following?:

-A custom battle system? Zelda-like? FF 1-6 like? Even Final Fantasy Tactics-like?
-A custom menu system

[Vonwert]

A custom battle system? - Yes.

Granted it will be somewhat simplistic, but you can be pretty complicated. There was footage from a Japanese creator who really pushed it to the limit.

But we here have done some great stuff. But there are a lot of custom battle systems that basically boil down to rock, paper, sissors.

And for Link? - No quite.

You could go up to the enemy and make a random chance they will die, but that really isn't the same. It really isn't viable.

But now, you can really do some neat stuff, even sidescrolling like Dave Carter has done.

But if you really want to that stuff right and on a console rpgmaker, then RPGMaker 2 would be your best bet.

[Theskippingman]

You could go up to the enemy and make a random chance they will die, but that really isn't the same. It really isn't viable.

I heard there were at least a couple different ways to make the game fudge "variables", the most popular being invisible items. If only someone could explain this.

[Draygone]

Item Variable Explanation:
First, since you are asking for a variable substitute, that tells me you are already experienced with them. Thank goodness, that'll make this easier to explain.

Anyway, one of the things events can check when starting is if you have an item or not. An Item Variable, would simply be an item used as a limited variable. But events can't check how many items you have, so you'll only be able to check whether you have at least one of the item variable, or none at all. It comes in handy, though, because this means you can do stuff like check if a character is out of HP by subtracting the right amount of items from the inventory, and have it trigger death when no more items are left the next time the event is triggered.

That's basically it. Of course, there are many uses for such a workaround. My game, Jester's Hunt, uses items as variables throughout the game, for plenty of minigames and puzzles, and its custom battle system. Speaking of which, since you seem to be interested in CBSs, here's how mine works:

Throughout the game you gain a small repertoire of attacks to use (12). But at most you can only choose from three attacks when fighting. So most attacks are only useable against certain enemies. Attacks are various, from causing basic damage, to distraction and stun, and even confusion. Although attacks against you are for the most part restricted to regular damage, except one enemy blinds you by blacking out the screen until you walk a certain distance away from him. But each enemy does attack you in unique ways, even though they are all the same end result.

Bump into the enemy, choose an available attack. Bump into the enemy again, the enemy attacks. Repeat until one of you goes down. Most enemies go down in one or two hits, assuming you're keeping up with new attacks. Start the game with three HP and three MP, finish the game with 10 of each if you can find all the hidden boosters. Healing is possible if you use a learned healing skill "against" the proper enemies. Enemies also drop a minor HP or MP recovering item if you took damage or used an MP-consuming attack.

I don't do the same thing with bosses, though. Most bosses are more mini-games than actual battles. But as you can see, you can create an interesting battle system if you know how to work with RPGM1 right. Of course, it's very memory-consuming, but totally worth it if you're not worried about memory consumption.

(On an unrelated note: Bah! Freaking account timeout! There goes all those "new post" markers. :()

[Theskippingman]

Hm..still confusing. Could you give me a detailed example situation and example syntax?

[1ce]

Yep, with enough pratice you can create most anything you want. I working on a tactics game and have made a custom day/night system. It's possible.

[Draygone]

It doesn't get any more simple than, you either have one or more of the item, or you don't have any at all. You've used variables before, right? It's basically a condition that (using an item called "Cheese" as a variable for example)

Item:Cheese >= 1
or
Item:Cheese = 0

In my game, I have an item called "Health". As long as I have at least one "Health", I survive an enemy attack. When I'm hit, it takes one "Health" out of my inventory. But once I don't have any "Health" left in my inventory, then the next time I'm attacked, I'm dead.

[Theskippingman]

Ok, I understand. Is there any way to have the item not show up in the inventory? If so, that would pretty much add up to the equivalent of variables the way I see it.

And has anyone ever tried their own custom menu system?

[Lord_Mofop]

Ok, I understand. Is there any way to have the item not show up in the inventory? If so, that would pretty much add up to the equivalent of variables the way I see it.

And has anyone ever tried their own custom menu system?

you cant exactly make an item not appear in your inventory. you can however make it's name blank and not give it an explanation so that the number would only appear in your inventory.

and you cannot make an in game custom menu system. as long as the player can press square, they will be able to access the only menu, which is pre-set.

[Draygone]

Slayers' Reign (RPGM1, of course) uses a custom menu with which to restore MP, swap party members, save, and even change between four different menu backgrounds (of the custom menu). And will be used for a couple of special items. But the main menu is still used for other stuff, since you can't get rid of it and this custom menu is only accessed at save points.

And like the person above me stated, best you can do with "item variables" is give it a blank name. But only do that when you're finished with the game. Makes it easier debugging when you give the item a recognizeable name.

[Theskippingman]

Damnit. I was hoping there was something in there that could actually let you somehow invalidate square activating the menu system, but no dice I guess. RPG Maker 1 is truly weak sauce compared to its successor. Although awesome games like Crazy Skating, Nano-Bot, Remote Control, and Minigame RPG show just what's still possible when very experienced and ingenious people work with the severe limitations of the scripting and graphics.

[Draygone]

If I may ask, why is it so important to disable the regular menu?

And you call RPGM1 weak? You obviously haven't played RPG Maker 3. As has been pointed out, RPGM1 is a very capable RPG Maker. You just can't do anything to the game engine itself is all, aside from the names of a few parameters. And it lacks variables, if/then commands, and the ability to move more than one unique event at the same time. But still, very capable.

[Vonwert]

I managed to pull off some neat puzzles on 3, and a lot better ones on 1.

You just need to think outside the box when making games on RPGMakers.

[Perversion]

I pulled off some neat(er) puzzles and minigames with RPGM3 too. I still have to release my game containing a strategy/puzzle hybrid minigame.

[Theskippingman]

If I may ask, why is it so important to disable the regular menu?

In case you would like to have one of your own.

And you call RPGM1 weak? You obviously haven't played RPG Maker 3. As has been pointed out, RPGM1 is a very capable RPG Maker. You just can't do anything to the game engine itself is all, aside from the names of a few parameters. And it lacks variables, if/then commands, and the ability to move more than one unique event at the same time. But still, very capable.

Oh, I'm aware of RPGM3. RPGM3 is featureless junk that can basically create about the most generic featureless fantasy RPG with turn-based combat you can dream up.

And variables, and if/then commands are extremely basic scripting syntax.

[Draygone]

Nothing's stopping you from creating a custom menu, anyway.

[Lord_Mofop]

Oh, I'm aware of RPGM3. RPGM3 is featureless junk that can basically create about the most generic featureless fantasy RPG with turn-based combat you can dream up.



dont be such a negative nancy about 3. you can do a lot of things if you put your mind around the basic programming of these games.

[Draygone]

As a side note, it's kinda refreshing to see RPGM1 discussion going around. A lot of people are using RPGM3, and most people who use RPGM2 don't come here.

[Lantis]

Heh, very true. So I might as well dive in as well.

What I'm starting to use in my puzzles and such has really helped me pull off nifty ideas. If you make the party invisible (or off screen) and plac events aroud them that basically toggle or scroll through a number of switches, you can make cursors and such. Kind of like a custom menu. I was talking to dray yesterday about such a puzzle... basically you control a cursor over piano keys to play a song... simon says style.

But enough of that... A final fantasy tactics type battle system is possible. Vonwert spoke of it already. TAKE made this kind of system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLeJi9cgifM

It's at 0:41 and 1:09

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

as ive recently learned, you can really break the mold and create anything. your limitations are only set at your creativity, the amount of space it takes, and the complexity of your idea. given enough thought you can come up with a way to do something then find a way to make it smaller. i suggest breaking things up into small manageable sections. find out how you will do each of those things and then combine them together. you really gota think outside the box.

[Theskippingman]

Well of course, but there are many, many things in RPGM1 that are still physically impossible with no workaround.

[Draygone]

Yeah, but there are still enough next-bests. I couldn't have a cutscene where a married couple run through the stormy woods away from some ghosts, when a soldier comes to the rescue, but fails when one of the ghosts distract him while the other two ghosts resume chasing. Not without it looking awkward. So I went with the screen flashing images of the chase with a "bum-BOOM" sound, and the effect is quite nice.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

thats exactly how it is. if you cant do it exactly as you like you can do something similar and still be able to achieve the same. rpg maker 1 is incredibly flexible. thats probably the hugest downfall of the other two makers, is that its very rigid and has little room to trick the system. i guess thats the penalty for being more complex and to do greater scope of coding.

[Draygone]

To be fair, RPGM2 can still do a lot more.

[orius]

As has been pointed out, RPGM1 is a very capable RPG Maker. You just can't do anything to the game engine itself is all, aside from the names of a few parameters. And it lacks variables, if/then commands, and the ability to move more than one unique event at the same time. But still, very capable.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. RPGM1 isn't bad, especially when you start looking into some of the advanced stuff. Skills in particular can be a good way of customizing characters. And though I'm not a great programmer, I do feel the lack of variables and if/then at times. I've done enough real simple programing and scripting to know how to use them (and trying to do anything without really bends the brain).

And there's some other things that kind of weaken RPGM1's flexibility. One is the elemental system, they way whatever three elements you put in are intertwined (though possibly you could just work with 2 or even 1). I'd like weapons that can also inflict negative status effects or have stuff like HP draining. Maybe a few more monster abilities. Variable damage on magic, rather than just a fixed damage amount (though that might make things trickier to balance). A page condition that checks for a skill. A page condition that checks for an item quantity (not just the binary yes/no option). These are all things I've wished I could do when planning out a game.

Still, I think RPGM was designed with the idea of making a fairly simple, short JRPG style game, where most of us are trying to imitate Final Fantasy or something. :)

[Draygone]

Which is entirely possible, if you know enough tricks and put in the effort. You just won't be using any side-view ATB system.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

And there's some other things that kind of weaken RPGM1's flexibility. One is the elemental system, they way whatever three elements you put in are intertwined (though possibly you could just work with 2 or even 1).

elemental systems have for the most part been overplayed in rpgs and done to death that replacing this system with something else almost should be a necessity. for instance, in my game, i removed the elemental "element" and replaced it with a different system that relies on pierce, slash, and blunt. so if you cast a traditional earth spell it could be considered as blunt damage in bolder form, slash damage as broken rock bits, or pierce as jagged pieces. i each creature have a defensive weakness that would make sense. a pierce to a jelly monster wouldnt be very effective, a club strike to a skeleton would be devastating, and perhaps a fleshy beast would be hindered by a slash but be less hindered to a club blow.

use the system as a stepping stone to your imagination. think outside the box and develop something thats unique and puts a radical spin on an old idea. the elemental design is still there, but it becomes a fresh idea which means it will be infinitely more exciting to work with while creating and spin off ideas itself which themselves will be more creative.

I'd like weapons that can also inflict negative status effects or have stuff like HP draining. Maybe a few more monster abilities. Variable damage on magic, rather than just a fixed damage amount (though that might make things trickier to balance).

these would be nice but i have to wonder how effective they are in already popular games. i know myself that i rarely use such weapons unless they are superior in performance then the latest and greatest alternative. also we know how effective status effects are against us the player but i cant ever recall a game where status effects where important to use against the enemy. i believe this is very true with rpg maker, as most status wont even work against the enemies unless you considerably lower the resistance stat and that turns the victories into cheap ones.

A page condition that checks for a skill. A page condition that checks for an item quantity (not just the binary yes/no option). These are all things I've wished I could do when planning out a game.

i know forsure you can have the conditions check the amount of items in your possession. if you layer up the same item condition it will check to make sure you have achieved every condition before activating (3 have item potion checks will be check for 3 or more potions before activating, adding a 4th option of potion no will ensure that you must only have 3 i think).

i thought their was something similar for skills where it checks to make sure you have a skill, but this might be only for magic. in any event you can bypass this i think with using the required level condition and making that condition the level you would learn the spell at, plus a condition for having that character in your part. would need some ironing out but its very possible.

as you can probably tell i am a big fan of the flexibility of rpg maker 1. i know that there are few limits with this design game because i have played so many games where pavi's have blown old held limit beliefs out of the box. you can bypass alot of problems in this game, it just takes imagination, a bit of preplaning, and alot of tinkering.

[Draygone]

i know forsure you can have the conditions check the amount of items in your possession. if you layer up the same item condition it will check to make sure you have achieved every condition before activating (3 have item potion checks will be check for 3 or more potions before activating, adding a 4th option of potion no will ensure that you must only have 3 i think).
This for real? First time I heard of this.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

so far as ive tested. im not 100% positive on the yes no for exact value, (the 3 yes, followed by a no for the item) and you have to put alot of work to have it check if you have more then 6 items but it does work. ive created several mini games that work using this.

edit: i tested the yes no i proposed and it turns out that does not work, yet having multiple yes to an item as a condition does work in limited form.

edit2: that is most odd. my mini games and events have somehow worked using this and ive used it for some time with no problems yet in a controlled environment in a new game it doesnt work in the slightest. im going to have to do some more testing.

[orius]

these would be nice but i have to wonder how effective they are in already popular games. i know myself that i rarely use such weapons unless they are superior in performance then the latest and greatest alternative. also we know how effective status effects are against us the player but i cant ever recall a game where status effects where important to use against the enemy. i believe this is very true with rpg maker, as most status wont even work against the enemies unless you considerably lower the resistance stat and that turns the victories into cheap ones.

Yeah, that's all too true in many cases. A lot of games stuff in the status effects, but either enemies are too weak, and are just better off killed quickly, or they're tough and immune to the status in the first place. FFX is a game that comes quickly to mind, the equipment customization isn't a bad option, but in much of the game, the enemies generally are killed with a single hit, and when you get to the point where they take more than one hit, they have massive status resistance or immunity too.


i know forsure you can have the conditions check the amount of items in your possession. if you layer up the same item condition it will check to make sure you have achieved every condition before activating (3 have item potion checks will be check for 3 or more potions before activating, adding a 4th option of potion no will ensure that you must only have 3 i think).

Yeah, that's a way around it that I considered, but for one it's clunky and second, I'n not sure how well it works with take overs.

i thought their was something similar for skills where it checks to make sure you have a skill, but this might be only for magic. in any event you can bypass this i think with using the required level condition and making that condition the level you would learn the spell at, plus a condition for having that character in your part. would need some ironing out but its very possible.

No, you can't check for an actual skill. Possibly magic will also check for S Attacks (I don't remember), but that would mean the character would have to reach a certain level in the skill. Plus if you changed skills, checking that way would fail, if you had the S Attack, but changed skills later, so there are some situations where that wouldn't work.

as you can probably tell i am a big fan of the flexibility of rpg maker 1. i know that there are few limits with this design game because i have played so many games where pavi's have blown old held limit beliefs out of the box. you can bypass alot of problems in this game, it just takes imagination, a bit of preplaning, and alot of tinkering.

Unfortunately, I'm not that good with the game yet.

[Karr Lord of Chaos]

it takes a good while to master alot of more difficult stuff. i played a bunch of games and just kept thinking about possibilities then tried to make them work. i break everything down. i start with a concept that is easy to work then i layer it until i get the effect i want.

keep at it and youll get better fast.

[orius]

Yeah I know that. The more I worked with my first game, the best I got at scripting stuff. I also got ideas that I experimented with on the side some of which I'll probably use in the game I'm working on.

However, I'm more of a casual user of RPG Maker at best, since I play a lot of different games. And RPGM does take a lot of planning and work, and usually I don't want to go through all that trouble when I put a game in. :D