Good level design in RPGs

[Toaster]

Use the topic as a springboard.

After I get a few people's opinions I'll post my own theory. I just wanna hear what other people think about level design and RPGs, respecitvely.

[Loki]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

The one that jumps to mind is Kefka's Tower. 3 different parties working together to help each other through the level. That's pretty cool. And there's one in Mother 3 that's so awesome that it made my jaw drop. But I'm not going to list it 'cause it's a spoiler.

[Kefka Jr.]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

I can think of way more examples of bad (Persona 2) or annoying (Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, SaGa Frontier) level design than good. I guess if it's done right it can be hard to notice.

No, wait. Wild Arms. The 4th especially, and Alter Code F to an extent. I can't think of any great examples from either, but they both found a way to make dungeon exploration as important as combat. Alter Code F might have overstepped the boundaries, though - essentially forcing you to scour the surface of Filgaia for treasures, which I did, of course, because I'm a completionist.

I also give props to both Valkyrie Profiles for great navigation systems.

[Loki]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

I can think of way more examples of bad (Persona 2) or annoying (Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, SaGa Frontier) level design than good. I guess if it's done right it can be hard to notice.

WHUT?

[IRC]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

I'd consider any good puzzle RPG to have good level design. Lufia 2 especially but even the first game was good for it's time. Also Earthbound was very well done. Each one was very natural and you felt that you were in real places. And I personally loved the dungeons in FFIV. The underground waterway particularly comes to mind. Of course that could just be the nostalgia talking.

[Patryn]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

I can think of way more examples of bad (Persona 2) or annoying (Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, SaGa Frontier) level design than good.

Pardon?

[Loki]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

Persona 2's level design was what turned me off the most.

[Kefka Jr.]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

WHUT?

Well, on many occasions in any of those games, I've walked down what I assumed was a new corridor, only to be lead back to the beginning of the dungeon. The Pyramid from Illusion of Gaia comes to mind, as well as... some cave in Terrangima. I especially hate when you hit a switch or something and you're not giving any clue as to what the hell the switch triggered.
Or am I just complaining about hard dungeons.

Also, yeah, what Cow said, about level design being natural. In which case, I think I'll take back what I said about SaGa Frontier, because, however ugly they were, every room seemed to have a purpose, and they weren't all just copy-pasted.

Also, if we're talking about natural level design, I'd like to mention Contact. I haven't finished it, but I think all the areas are pretty unique, and the Habara area is so cool. However, I thought Aegis was a terrible stage - just a rudimentary desert. Why was Aegis so long and Habara so short? God damn it.

Edit: Which brings me to why I hate Persona 2. I've never come across designs that were so UNnatural. Since when are night clubs and TV stations built with such labyrinthian specs? That stuff may have flown in Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, where there were caves and ruins or whatever and people accepted the whole "left, right, right, whoops, totally pointless dead end, backtrack" method of exploration, but Persona doesn't deserve the luxury of that excuse. The ugly neon green map screen only makes things more frustrating. It's especially angering realizing that they obviously spent so much time on the awesome combat system, AND THEN THEY DROPPED THE BALL. I'd play it if someone else would go through dungeons for me and call me in whenever there was a fight.

[Jamos]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

Pardon?

I love Persona 2, but you can't possibly say that the level design was good, Patryn.

[Patryn]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

I wouldn't hold them up as examples of exemplary level design, no, but I didn't find them any more asinine than most RPG dungeons. So I'm just objecting to them being singled out as the prime example of horrible design. It's kind of like how I don't complain that there is no mansion in the world that even comes close to what the RE mansion is like. Maybe I'm too accepting, but I realize that it's the simple nature of video games.


Maybe I'm just more able to suspend my disbelief than some of you.

[John Mora]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

Skies of Arcadia had some interesting dungeons.

[Garr123]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

Well there was a reason that the RE mansion was an insane piece of architecture.

[DK]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

Skies of Arcadia had some interesting dungeons.

Yeah, too bad you get into a five minute long random battle every two steps in them, though.

[IRC]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

Actually didn't some wacko build a mansion designed to conjurn spirits so he could contact the spirit of his dead wife? It was supposed to be all crazy with stairways leading to dead ends and doors that didn't open. Stuff like that.

I think was KJ was saying is that even though the levels in Persona would be perfectly acceptable in another game they weren't because of the setting of that particular game.

Contact did have good level design, reminded me of Secret of Man or Chrono Trigger. Man, just thinking of Secret of Mana makes my heart flutter. Both of those games also had a great flow to the dungeons. It might not be conventional but I think having the right music helps make a dungeon. Secret of Mana was king of doing that. Ice Country.

[Misty]

Re: Good level design in RPGs

I agree with Mora about Skies having good dungeon designs. I also thought Wind Waker had some interesting ones as well.